Advice please Stainz and powered tender issues

Topogardenmike

Topogardenmike

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Hi guys some advice needed please. I hacked about a LGB Stainz loco by cutting out the back of a the cab and paired it with a LGB powered tender that I obtained from EBay. I wired a common power supply through a mini plug so that the pick ups on the tender and loco are common.
The problem I have is that there is a slight difference in speed. For two turns of the logos wheel the tender wheel rotates 2.5 turns. This has the effect that the tender can be heard pushing the loco. I was wondering if this is because the loco is powered via a decoder I think. It's a standard Stainz last of the LGB starter sets. I would like to retain the sound etc on the loco.

Any suggestions to get both revolving at same speed. Thanks. Mike
 
Topogardenmike said:
Hi guys some advice needed please. I hacked about a LGB Stainz loco by cutting out the back of a the cab and paired it with a LGB powered tender that I obtained from EBay. I wired a common power supply through a mini plug so that the pick ups on the tender and loco are common.
The problem I have is that there is a slight difference in speed. For two turns of the logos wheel the tender wheel rotates 2.5 turns. This has the effect that the tender can be heard pushing the loco. I was wondering if this is because the loco is powered via a decoder I think. It's a standard Stainz last of the LGB starter sets. I would like to retain the sound etc on the loco.

Any suggestions to get both revolving at same speed. Thanks. Mike
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Is the tender just for the look?
If so disconnect the motor in it or do as I did make an unpowered tender .
My tender holds the batteries and R/C gear with the loco having the motor only.
 
The same thing can happen with the Frank S and its variants - the tender runs faster because it has much less drag on it than the 0-6-0 loco with all its valve gear.....

To be honest, I'd go with GAP on this and simply remove the motor from the tender gearbox, unless you really want the two-motor setup for increased pulling power. Keep the tender power pickups because this will help the running of the Stainz enormously, but just take the motor out. That way you'll have a good spare motor for later use, and unless you're pulling very long trains I doubt you'll miss it.

Jon.
 
If you want the extra power a second motor brings, but not the excess speed of the tender over the loco, see if it is possible to insert a diode dropper - a pair of diodes wired opposite way round to each other in parrallel. This needs to go between the track and the motor in the tender. It does not matter which side it is on, as it will work either way round.

On more recent LGB mechs that should be easy as the pick ups and motor supply have separate terminals on the pins on top of the motor block

Diodes have the effect of dropping the voltage slightly. The more you insert, the more voltage you lose. If one pair of reversed diodes does not make enough difference try two pairs etc. etc.

I use a system like this to stop Thomas series locos racing away when run from the same supply as my LGB and track powered PM.

Obviously all this assumes that you are pure DC and not meddling in the dark arts of DCC...

Personally I really like twin motored locos, but like you, I always ensure that the there is an electrical link between one motor and the other. This gives much more reliable current collection and prevents lurching when one motor has lost contact and is being dragged or shoved by the other.

James
 
Thanks for the responses guys. Thinking about next stage. I do not need the extra power really as about six wagons is the max.
 
What type motor blocks do these two units have? If the Stainz, for instance, has a clamshell motor block, but the tender has the newer type with the removable bottom, they may not run at the same speed do to the different designs.
 
You say that the Stainz has (or may have?) a decoder fitted? If that is the case, then you could always fit a decoder to the tender as well (say a Massoth L at around the forty quid mark), and then fiddle with the tender driving CVs until you get an approximate speed match? That is what has been done with my Nicki & Frank S (which was bought from another forum member), it has separate loco and tender decoders and the tender's driving curve has been "tweaked" till it matches the loco's.

Jon.
 
When I started I had quite a collection of Stainzes with tenders. Never had a problem even with a mix of clamshells & newer motors. If there was a big difference it usually meant a faulty motor.

group3 (Medium).jpg


 
Topogardenmike said:
Thanks for the responses guys. Thinking about next stage. I do not need the extra power really as about six wagons is the max.
Click to expand...
Fair comment about the power but I think extra pickups provided by the tender will be beneficial. However these cause drag and the tender motor will overcome this.
I once removed one of the two motors from an LGB U.S. streetcar as I wished to fit a single motor decoder. These units have no couplings and, as far as I know, the prototypes ran as single units so I didn't see the need for the second motor. However the pickups on these models have a relatively poor reputation so I wished to keep all of them. The non motored wheels didn't rotate consistently due to the pickups, don't think the relatively light weight of these models helped though.
Unsurprisingly the second motor was refitted.
 
I like those Stainz with the little tenders. Where do you get them from or are they a scratch build by someone?
 
Dave500UK said:
I like those Stainz with the little tenders. Where do you get them from or are they a scratch build by someone?
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They are an LGB item Dave, but not currently in the range so you usually have to find them second hand.

I found this one on the GARDEN RAILWAY CENTRE website though....

http://www.gardenrailwaycentres.info/shop/index.php?_a=product&product_id=1097
 
Dave500UK said:
I like those Stainz with the little tenders. Where do you get them from or are they a scratch build by someone?
Click to expand...


Check out Evilbay. They are on there all of the time.
 
They are a bit pricy though. One on Ebay £150 and GRC £214!! ???
Looks like time to scratch build something for less than £50 as adding a motor is not really needed but enhanced power pickup is always useful.

Also if cutting the rear out of a Stainz cab, which part do you remove when using a tender? It looks like just the centre 1/3 in those photos.
 
Just cut out the middle bit of the cab. There is a bit more carving to do. To fit a fall plate, if required, a slot needs to be cut under the cab & the coupling can be changed. The fall plate & coupling are supplied with a new tender but you may not be so lucky buying second hand.
fall2.jpg
fall3.jpg
 
Thanks, very useful pics.
I may have located a non powered tender of some sort as well.
 
Dave500UK said:
They are a bit pricy though. One on Ebay £150 and GRC £214!! ???
Looks like time to scratch build something for less than £50 as adding a motor is not really needed but enhanced power pickup is always useful.
.................
Click to expand...

The more expensive LGB tenders that you see on eBay and elsewhere will most likely be the sound-equipped ones....

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
The more expensive LGB tenders that you see on eBay and elsewhere will most likely be the sound-equipped ones....

Jon.
Click to expand...
The linky I provided a link to was for a sound example, but it was just to show Dave500UK what was available 'off the shelf'....
 
Understood. Sound is not something I want anyway but someone I know thinks he may have something picked up years ago and never used that he doesn't want, if he can find it.
 
nice, no really nice, job of cutting out the cab wall. Looks great and proper.

as for the difference in speeds
I have not had this issue, and I have 7 loco and tender 2105 variations, as well as two separate tenders, one sound and one non sound to match yellow 2017 locos.

I run analog

I have noticed that mixing decoder and non decoder locos will result in different speeds at lower voltages, but closer speeds at , say, 75% throttle.

I have a decoder porter, and a non decoder porter and the difference is huge between the two in terms of speed and voltage.
being ignorant of digital stuff, I don't know if the decoder can be programmed to run with instant response and less delay etc

you can test this by putting the two uncoupled on a loop and experimenting with the rate one overtakes the other, and , if there is a certain voltage level where the two run at the same speed. for me, this seems to be at a fairly high voltage.

for example , I pair a sound and non sound ALco WPY and in order to have them synced in speed, I have to run around 12 volts or so, as I recall. this is due in the difference in starting voltage due to the sound system on one.
 
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