Best DCC for the job

tripp10538

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I grew up in an LGB home. My father was a distributor in greater NYC area. It was a second job for him, a professional hobby. It ended, and it leaves me with lots of trains and lots of track all circa 1985-95. I've been dusting it off for a few months now, and I have settled on my idea.

I'm going to run about 200' of track as an indoor shelf layout. This will go through a few different rooms with tunnels and bridges being suspended about 8' off the ground. It sounds like a lot of track for indoors, but its really just a single room main line loop with an extension off the main for a larger loop into another room. Picture two long narrow rooms in a railroad pattern (pun intended, railroad rooms means they share a common short side, and the floor plan of the rooms might look like a couple of cars on a track, NYC apartments are often done in this "railroad" style.) There is not a lot of room for more than a perimeter based shelf system, so the only path any train could take is going to be limited to the loop of the first room, or a loop of both rooms. To add a little more variety and fun, I'm going to have a siding in the outer loop. But that's it for track. I want to max out the potential for the layout, and since the track is locked in, I need the trains to do more than just go in a circle around the room. That gets boring after a while.

The layout I'm building will give me 4 total turnouts. I first figured to do the whole thing with LGB analog ELP stuff. I figured if I can get the timing with the track sensors right, I could have 4-5 trains running in an automated endless cycle where each train takes its turn at each spot on the rotation.

Problem is, that would be the end. The layout would be finished, and all I could do is adjust the speed. Then I started looking at DCC. With DCC is seems I could have the same automated design, but also be able to make route changes as I saw fit while the trains were going. That seems like a more interesting way to go.

But, I am really new to DCC, and I need a starting point. Seems like the most important decision is which system to use for the Command station. I read up on the most popular stuff, it sounds good, then I usually find out its meant for HO scale or smaller. Seems G scale doesn't quite have the availability other scales do. Basically I need some help picking the right command station.

I have a few needs, so that should narrow it down. I'll break it down by essentials, then by bonus features.

1. Must be programed and throttled by a modern PC

2. Must have an automated feature (I want to hit go and not have to worry, and multiple trains take their various routes around the layout without any human input)

3. Must be able to have at least 2 non-PC throttles to use in un-automated control.

4. Obviously, must be powerful enough to handle 200' of track, and as many as 5 locos assuming some powered rolling stock, but probably not all of it.

5. Will work with wide range of decoders since I do have some aristocraft loco's I want to use.

6. Must be able to identify where each loco is on the layout, even if it means extra components.

Bonus features,

1. Able to control from my smart phone (android for me)

2. Expandable (unlikely, but always nice to know you can)

3. Not needing a separate track section to do programming would be nice

4. maybe someday I put legitimate signals on the track for show

I realize this may not sound cheep, but I want to do it right, and I prepared for a big dent in my wallet to make it work right. I'd rather install decoders to get my childhood trains running again than get new ones, this includes some aristocraft locos.

So...what's a good Command Station to get this all done with?
 
Hello trip10538,

You will get lots of different answers to your question!

Although I haven't used it myself I believe the Massoth system has some semi automated features built in. I don't know of any other G-Scale suitable system that has that feature, without resorting to computer control.

It sound to me that if you want a lot of flexibility in setting route etc. then you will need to run your trains from a computer. In that case I think you have asked the wrong question. First you need to decide on which software you want to use, then once that is decided pick a DCC command station that will work with it.

I can suggest suitable software if you want?
 
You WILL need a length of track you can setup somewhere to program things..
I use a four-foot length, permanently setup on the bench, but with rail clamps for connection it can be 'de-mountable' and stored in a cupboard.

Oh, and while you are setting all this up, you will need it all the time!
;) :D ;D ;D

Sounds a great project. Keep us posted, and remember we like pictures!!
 
I have no doubt that Massoth DiMAX 1210Z Digital Central Station is favorable for your needs plus Stellwerk Easy 9 for the PC for full auto control (there is a free download to try). If you are converting LGB 1985-95 locos to DCC be careful some old locos have sandwich motor blocks and have 4 pins as for DCC but two of the pins are short inside. My advice is to make sure the motor pins are not shorted to the track pins before you fit a decoder otherwise a very expensive decoder will go up in smoke!
 
Cliff George said:
Hello trip10538,

You will get lots of different answers to your question!

Although I haven't used it myself I believe the Massoth system has some semi automated features built in. I don't know of any other G-Scale suitable system that has that feature, without resorting to computer control.

It sound to me that if you want a lot of flexibility in setting route etc. then you will need to run your trains from a computer. In that case I think you have asked the wrong question. First you need to decide on which software you want to use, then once that is decided pick a DCC command station that will work with it.

I can suggest suitable software if you want?

Cliff, sounds like you may get my overall confusion on what to use. I do believe I want PC control, not just to program, but also to run the trains. So maybe yes, I just need to find the software that does what I want, and then find a central station to turn software commands into DCC and send it out on the Bus. I really want the most features and the most options I can find. Like I said before, the track layout is unfortunately locked in, so all the creativity has to come from what I can do with the layout I have.

What software would you suggest? I don't mind it to be complicated to learn so long as its effective and can do impressive stuff. Isn't that the whole point, otherwise I'd might as well use analog.

I really like the idea of train detection, so you know where trains are moving and where they are stopped. I also want to have minimum 2 throttles being able to be used. I picture friends coming over and running trains around the rooms and the software making it idiot proof by not letting trains go through a stop sign. I don't need the command station to have automation features if the software can do that instead.

What's the best idea for software, and after that, what command station goes best with that software?
 
Here are a few suggestions for you to look at:

JMRI http://jmri.sourceforge.net/

RocRail http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php

TrainController http://www.freiwald.com/pages/index.html

iTrain http://www.berros.eu/en/itrain/

TouchCab http://www.touchcab.com/

Pahasoft http://www.pahasoft.nl/

Railware http://www.railware.com/

Stellwerk http://www.stellwerk-software.de/en/

Win-Digipet http://www.windigipet.de/foren/index.php

Have you watched my videos from the link below? There are a couple on computer control.
 
From what you are saying Stellwerk software will be the best. Jürgen Schwarz wrote stellwerk and LGB MTS software, so are compatibly with all the hardware LGB and Massoth products.
All LGB fitted sound units are Massoth the LGB decoders are Massoth only the first MTS Mouse and 55020 was Lens. So if you want an easy transfer there is only one choice. My railway is all run on a PC and can be switch back to manual for control by hand sets if i wish it is so easy.
 
I would disagree with 'Railway42' that Stellwerk software would be the best choice for our original poster ‘tripp10538’, however it is something he could consider.

The Stellwerk option would be just about the only choice if it has to work with legacy LGB command stations, however that is not the case here.

The DCC track standard means that it is irrelevant what decoders are fitted in locos. I get the impression that ‘tripp10538’ has a blank canvas and does not have any existing DCC equipment; perhaps he could clarify that point. I would caution against purchasing legacy LGB DCC equipment because some of it did not meet the NMRA DCC standard in regard to how it set functions.

A requirement is to work with a wide range of decoders, not just LGB ones.

I don’t believe Stellwerk will meet the requirement for idiot proof semi automatic control, where as several of the others above will.

I don’t believe Stellwerk has a current option for smart phone control.

My personal opinion is that using Stellwerk is very much like using and learning a new computer programming language, several of the others above are much more abstracted and do things much more in ‘railway’ terms.

I’ve provided some options for ‘tripp10538’ to consider. I haven’t made any recommendations of what is ‘best’ because that is often subjective and depends on requirements. The software I use is clearly stated below.
 
Stellwerk is a computer program only and can be used with contact control which is very easy to use or you can write schedules which requires you to learn the program. Stellwerk has nothing to do with decoders new or old.
The control is carried out by the central station, i.e. Massoth that will give you 24 v and 12 amps of power and from what I have read on this forum is well respected and is compatible with most if not all DCC decoders and meets the NMRA DCC standard.
tripp 10538 bonus feature. (Able to control from my smart phone), is not available yet. In my first post I said, (I have no doubt that Massoth DiMAX 1210Z Digital Central Station is favorable for your needs plus Stellwerk Easy 9 for the PC for full auto control.) Stellwerk is one of the recommended programs by Massoth, therefore both Massoth and Stellwerk can help with any problems you my have.
 
Personally I would not choose the Stellwerk software unless I was already using the LGB MTS central station with the 55060 and planning to stick with that. I have used the LGB MZS software which is the predecessor of Stellwerk Easy/2001 and was not impressed.

If you read German or maybe be able to use a translator this page gives an overview of different software, please note that some may not support the protocol of the central station you would like to use. http://www.digital-bahn.de/info_kompo/software.htm

As you can see from the comparison in the link the following software is rated with extensive functionality and with support for Massoth:
WinDigiPet, TrainController, Railware, iTrain or Rocrail.
 
Cliff,

I saw your youtube videos on PC controlling DCC, that was a great explanation you did there.

So let me make sure I got this right; I get a central station (any brand will do, scale is irrelevant, but for me, pick one that has smartphone compatibility), add the respective components that allows train detection, also add appropriate components to control turn-outs, and then add software that controls its all, any software will do. Then using the software,( I like the way the one in cliff's video looked), I control it all from there. does that sound right?

I'm leaning toward digitrax since they seem to have be reasonably priced and they have all of the features I want, which were

1. Entire layout can be controlled by either a handheld throttle (or two) or a PC

2. Control from smartphone

3. Power upgradable with extra modules

4. works with all major decoders

and the software in cliff's video shows that I can either have it automated with a designated schedule, or independent of the schedule. If I used that same software or even something else like it, am I correct to assume that a train running without a schedule controlled by a handheld throttle will be able to work in conjunction with other trains that may be running around the layout on their own schedule? Basically, will the manual avoid the automated, and go with the flow?

What I mean by idiot-proof is that a friend can be trusted to send trains around using a hand-held throttle and not cause a collision. If a block is occupied, the train should not be able to even enter the block, and instead would stop at the appropriate point to wait for the track to be cleared. IS that something that is done by the software or the command station.? I ask since I want to know if the PC has to be running in order for the handheld to be used idiot-proof.
 
Update,

In the past few hours, I've learned that Digitrax needs isolated track sections, and can only detect specific trains when their own decoders are used. Is this the same for massoth or other brands?

Cliff or somebody else, how do you detect your specific trains? Is isolated track sections the only option?
 
Massoth use DiMAX Feedback Module and a reed to detect the loco or you can use a Massoth DiMAX Train Detection Module. detects an electrical load on a track section, (isolated track section) that tells the Central Station when the loco is on the track. The Massoth DiMAX 1210Z Digital Central Station does not need a PC interface it has USB and RS232 connections.
 
tripp10538 said:
So let me make sure I got this right; I get a central station (any brand will do, scale is irrelevant, but for me, pick one that has smartphone compatibility), add the respective components that allows train detection, also add appropriate components to control turn-outs, and then add software that controls its all, any software will do. Then using the software,( I like the way the one in cliff's video looked), I control it all from there. does that sound right?

Yes you need a central station, but you need one that supports large scale voltage and currents. Something like the Digitrax DCS200 would be OK.

Yes you need train detection. Feedback busses and so on are not standardised by the NMRA so you do tend to get locked in to what your DCC command station provider supplies. Having said that Digitrax LocoNet is supported by a lot of third parties, probably the best of any DCC system supplier.

Yes you need to have turn-out control.

The software you use has to be compatible with command station you use. If we are talking RR&Co TrainController and Digitrax then they are compatible.

With some DCC control software the 'smartphone' compatibility can be done through the controlling software and doesn't need to be done directly via the command station. This is the case with RR&Co TrainController and is actually the best way to do if you really want 'idiot proof' semi automatic control.

tripp10538 said:
I'm leaning toward digitrax since they seem to have be reasonably priced and they have all of the features I want, which were

That will probably work. I'm no Digitrax expert and I don't know anyone on here who is. There are lots of people on the RR&Co forum who use Digitrax, you could ask there.

tripp10538 said:
and the software in cliff's video shows that I can either have it automated with a designated schedule, or independent of the schedule. If I used that same software or even something else like it, am I correct to assume that a train running without a schedule controlled by a handheld throttle will be able to work in conjunction with other trains that may be running around the layout on their own schedule? Basically, will the manual avoid the automated, and go with the flow?

RR&Co TrainController and probably others (it is a long time since I looked at anything else!) have the ability to have fully automatic control of some trains and semi automatic control of others. Semi automatic means that the handset user has to start and stop trains under guidance from the software/signals. If the driver doesn't stop when he should the software will stop the train anyway to avoid collisions. Much like being the driver of a real train a train is always going from somewhere to somewhere, routes are always set for the train by others, and all the driver has to do is to stop and start the train. As such both automatic and semi automatic trains run on schedules. It is not really possible to have a fully manually operated train running at the same time as automatic trains since the software does not (yet!) have the ability to read the drivers mind and know where he is going to go to know what to avoid. Blocks can be reserved for fully manual controlled trains (i.e. a switching yard) and automatic trains will avoid those blocks. This works best when the software has close control of the semi-automatic drivers handheld. In RR&Co this means using there own handhelds SmartHand. The best place to find out more is by reading the manual which is available free from the RR&Co site. http://www.freiwald.com/pages/index.html. Drivers are of course completely free to decide which schedule they are running on.

tripp10538 said:
What I mean by idiot-proof is that a friend can be trusted to send trains around using a hand-held throttle and not cause a collision. If a block is occupied, the train should not be able to even enter the block, and instead would stop at the appropriate point to wait for the track to be cleared. IS that something that is done by the software or the command station.? I ask since I want to know if the PC has to be running in order for the handheld to be used idiot-proof.

It is a feature of the software, which has to be running.

tripp10538 said:
In the past few hours, I've learned that Digitrax needs isolated track sections, and can only detect specific trains when their own decoders are used. Is this the same for massoth or other brands?

I think you are getting confused with Digitrax Transponding which you do not need (the software will keep track of where trains are for you and doesn't need hardware support). Something like the Digitrax DBL168 or BD4 is all you need and they will detect all trains (because they just detect a current draw in the block). These types of detectors which detect presence in a block do require you to isolate sections of track. This is easy to do with LGB track by either using special track pieces such as 10152, 10153, 11152 or insulated rail joiners 10260. There are other types of detector that don't require isolated track sections, the type where there is a magnet on the train and it activated reed switch in the track. I'm sure you can have this type with Digitrax. It is also possible to get optical detectors. Occupancy detectors work best because they operate over a larger area of track, not just one specific point on the track. Again the RR&Co manual will help you.

If I can help in any way do let me know. Sorry if this sounds complicated, it really isn't.
 
Block detection in it's simplest form is simply an indicator that something is in that block, but there is no indication of what - so it's down to the controlling software to keep track of what train is where. Transponding means that the decoder in the loco (or any other item of rolling stock) can transmit ID information back via the transponding receivers. Thus the controlling system is told what train is where. I've seen this in action a few years ago with the Fleischmann system.

Block detection and/or transponding both require a separate signal/network bus (not the track power bus) to send information back to the controlling system.

As for wiring stationary decoders etc. separately to the track power bus, the usual reason for this recomendation is in the case of a derailment or overshoot causing a short circuit and power shut-off, when it can be useful to retain the ability to throw points etc. especially on complex layouts. This assumes the power bus for the stationary decoders is on its own power district booster. My line is very simple, but I have all my point decoders on a separate power bus. This also means I can change my track power to analogue DC for visiting locos yet still control the points under DCC.

So... already we're up to 3 busses / 6 wires going round the system: the track power bus, the stationary decoder power bus, the network bus for block detection etc.

For our large scale tracks it can be argued that the track power bus may not be necessary, as the thickness of the rail provides good power handling (it's thicker than typical bus wring) as long as all rail joints are well bonded to minimise losses.
 
Hi Cliff,
I know this thread started some time ago but as I am just starting in g-scale it is relevant for me.
I have a lot of experience with computer control in OO scale, and I used a lot of LDT kit to provide the feedback on an S-88 bus. I saw in your excellent youtube video that you also use LDT current occupancy detector in your test layout. As I have quite an investment in this kit I would like to reuse it but concerned that it may not be "man enough" for the job in large scale. The LDT specs say it can handle 3A continuous and 7A peak which ought to be enough for my small layout but I wanted to check with someone with experience. Any comments welcome. BTW I am quite a fan of Rocrail and hope to be able to continue to use that was well.
Thanks, Dave (g-scale newbie)
 
Hi Dave,

At the start I was a bit concerned myself about the 3Amp limit on the LDT current occupancy detectors, but I need not have been concerned. I have never had any issues with the detectors and they have been very reliable.

In reality the Bulher motors in LGB locos rarely draw more than about 0.5Amp each, and that is only when they are belting round at top speed with a heavy train. Most of the time they draw a lot less than 0.5Amp. Some other makes of trains, in particular USA Trains, are known to draw much more current, so maybe it would be a good idea to check what your trains are drawing. (An LGB loco that draws more than about 0.5Amp per motor is usually an indication that maintenance on the motor is needed).

If you are concerned I believe the Massoth detectors can handle more than 3Amps (I can't remember exactly how much more). I myself do not use the LDT detectors outdoors where I sometimes run longer heavy double headed trains. I use the Dallee Trak-DT to do the detecting www.dallee.com, but they may be a bit over the top. If I was starting again now I'd certainly do a review to see if there is anything else suitable.

Since I used the Lenz LZV100 in my indoor test setup and that can't put out more than about 4.5Amps at 18V then I should never get near breaking the 7Amp max limit.

If you already have the LDT detectors I'd would reuse them.

I hope that helps.

Good luck with Rocrail, I haven't tried using that for a while I may give it another go.
 
Excellent response thank you that's exactly the kind of practical advice I was looking for.

In a similar vein I also have a few LDT open/closed contact detectors (RM-88-N) which I was going to use with magnet/reed contact switches, do you happen to know if they would work with Hall effect detectors like Massoth 8420602? Is that just an open/close switch or is it DiMax "digital only" whatever that means?

Thanks, Dave
 
idlemarvel said:
In a similar vein I also have a few LDT open/closed contact detectors (RM-88-N) which I was going to use with magnet/reed contact switches, do you happen to know if they would work with Hall effect detectors like Massoth 8420602? Is that just an open/close switch or is it DiMax "digital only" whatever that means?

Can't say I have ever tried that combination, but the Massoth Manual says the 8420602 has an 'open collector' output so I think it should work.
 
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