Charging Lithium Batteries

JimmyB

JimmyB

Now retired - trains and fishing
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As a lot of you will know I am converting my locos to battery power, and as part of this bought a "Smart Charger" that charges a myriad of battery types. When I choose Lithium, I then have a choice of LiIo, LiPo, LiHv, LiFe etc. When I choose LiIo it charges to 3.6 V per cell, and when I choose LiPo it charges to 3.7 V per cell, which I understand WERE the standard voltage for these battery types.
My Questions relates to some new LiIo that now come rated at 3.7 V per cell:
Questions:
  1. Should I use the LiPo (3.7 V per cell) to charge the new 3.7 V LiIo batteries.
  2. Other than the 0.1 V lost, would there be an adverse effect charging the 3.7 V LiIo batteries using the LiIo setting and just charging to 3.6 V per cell.
My own thoughts are that using the either are acceptable and neither will cause a serious issue, but lots of you out there know more about batteries than I do :)
 
Very interested to see the replies to this, I've not been keeping up with the latest changes in battery tech - anyone able to give me a quick and not-too-techy description of how Lilo and LiHv differ from the Li-ions that I'm already familiar with?

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
Very interested to see the replies to this, I've not been keeping up with the latest changes in battery tech - anyone able to give me a quick and not-too-techy description of how Lilo and LiHv differ from the Li-ions that I'm already familiar with?

Jon.
Click to expand...
I'd be tempted to lie low on that one, Jon ;)
 
Zerogee said:
Very interested to see the replies to this, I've not been keeping up with the latest changes in battery tech - anyone able to give me a quick and not-too-techy description of how Lilo and LiHv differ from the Li-ions that I'm already familiar with?

Jon.
Click to expand...
LiIo and Li-Ion are the same just different abbreviations, caught me out at first, LiHv is a High Volume LiPo charging to a higher level LiPo are normally 4.2 V fully charged LiHv charge to 4.35/4.4/4.5 V dependant on type.
 
It is a capital i

Go with Li-ion, it is a throwback to first generation Li-Co lithium-ion cells.

If you are given voltage limits, then stick to them.

PhilP
 
Thanks Jimmy and Phil... thought I hadn't seen any reference to LiLo cells, wondered if they were some kind of new inflatable batteries.... :D

I'm going to stick with my nice factory-assembled packs of industrial-grade Li-ion cells with integral protection boards, and their matching charger - compact, safe and reliable, if not exactly the cheapest. :)

Appreciate the explanations!

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
I'm going to stick with my nice factory-assembled packs of industrial-grade Li-ion cells with integral protection boards, and their matching charger - compact, safe and reliable, if not exactly the cheapest. :)
Jon.
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Good plan.
 
Jimmy, you will "lose" a bit of capacity (run time) by charging to a lower terminal (full charge) voltage.

BUT

only a small percentage of the battery capacity is at the "end" of the charge, for all Lithium-based batteries

AND

Not trying to get those last few bits of charge will allow the battery to have more cycles (last longer)

AND

The charge time is reduced

So bottom line, if you are not running out of juice when you run a loco, by all means charge to the lower voltage, your batteries will appreciate it.

Greg
 
I've studied rechargeable batteries, and most importantly the chemistry and the charging characteristics since about 1975.

Normally getting that last 10% of capacity (charging from 90% full to 100% full) takes a lot of time, and is really not worth it.

Also, most lithium chargers indicate 100% when the actual battery is only technically charged to about 95%.

Battery powered cars are an excellent example. The consumer does not want to see 95% full, no matter how hard the manufacturers try to explain.

Greg
 
It is interesting that Li-Ion and Lipo technologies have not really developed very much from way back when they first came onto the commercial scene.
And Greg's point about the last 10% of charge needing more time than the first 90% or so, is a really good one as well as the fact that full 100% charge is not good for the batteries.
Electric car manufacturers will, (because they want to give the 'best' message), indicate a full 100% charge when, to protect the battery it will be a max of around 95%.. I wonder if the milage range that the manufacturers give takes into account the 'missing' 5 - 10%, or do they push the test batteries to their limit (not worrying about longevity of the test ones) so as to give the longest range but in the actual commercially available cars, the range will be shorter die to the battery protective 'top charge cap'.
Lithium is a rare commodity and there are estimates that we will run out of it even by 2040, though possibly this estimate is an old one not based on the massive increase in demand for electric cars that is already happening.
Re conditioning of spent batteries might help things along for a bit..but.
Cars will, hopefully, go over to the hydrogen cell technology by, or before, the time that Lithium reserves run out.

As the lithium becomes rare the price of batteries for the likes of us in the modelling world will increase by a fair bit..... maybe buy a few now and just keep them gently topped up, ready for new future project while the prices rise...:wasntme:
 
I've had 3 cars powered by lithium ion batteries. Most had a way to charge to close to 100%, range published was normally done with a tailwind ha ha!

But most of them also say not to charge to the indicated 100%, and even mention that the fast DC chargers (400v) wear the battery out faster than the 220v chargers.

(and as far as we can tell, the 100% indicated is never the full 100% terminal voltage/charge)

Greg
 
beavercreek said:
It is interesting that Li-Ion and Lipo technologies have not really developed very much from way back when they first came onto the commercial scene.
And Greg's point about the last 10% of charge needing more time than the first 90% or so, is a really good one as well as the fact that full 100% charge is not good for the batteries.
Electric car manufacturers will, (because they want to give the 'best' message), indicate a full 100% charge when, to protect the battery it will be a max of around 95%.. I wonder if the milage range that the manufacturers give takes into account the 'missing' 5 - 10%, or do they push the test batteries to their limit (not worrying about longevity of the test ones) so as to give the longest range but in the actual commercially available cars, the range will be shorter die to the battery protective 'top charge cap'.
Lithium is a rare commodity and there are estimates that we will run out of it even by 2040, though possibly this estimate is an old one not based on the massive increase in demand for electric cars that is already happening.
Re conditioning of spent batteries might help things along for a bit..but.
Cars will, hopefully, go over to the hydrogen cell technology by, or before, the time that Lithium reserves run out.

As the lithium becomes rare the price of batteries for the likes of us in the modelling world will increase by a fair bit..... maybe buy a few now and just keep them gently topped up, ready for new future project while the prices rise...:wasntme:
Click to expand...
It's unlikely we will run out of Lithium. Estimates of world reserves from conventional mining vary between 14 and 40 million tons. A Nissan Leaf needs about 4kg, a Tesla about 14kg, so there's enough to produce billions of electric cars, before we have to resort to non-conventional mining (like extracting from salt water) or relying on recycling (which we should do anyway).
 
But are battery cars the way forward anyway? With hydrogen cells getting more of a realistic option, could we end up with a problem similar to VHS v Betamax? As Greg states, the advertised range on an electric car is the same con as the advertised petrol consumption
 
Paul M said:
But are battery cars the way forward anyway? With hydrogen cells getting more of a realistic option, could we end up with a problem similar to VHS v Betamax? As Greg states, the advertised range on an electric car is the same con as the advertised petrol consumption
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Well we already have the equivalent to that “VHS v Betamax” issue with different types of charging plugs, 3 different types at least in Ireland Charging stations from a vid I recently watched on YouTube.

Hydrogen only worthwhile if it is Green Hydrogen as it takes 3 times more energy to create the Hydrogen than it would if you used conventionally created electricity. Hydrogen is not the be all and environmental delight that some would have us believe. But and there is always a but, it is a good way of storing surplus green energy from days when wind or solar is creating a surplus so has a part to play.

Interesting that there appears to be more shouting to allow fracking “as we need to be self reliant for energy”, there are likely hundreds of years of coal left underground in Uk that will never be used now, if only someone had persisted with carbon capture.
 
Greg Elmassian said:
worst case estimate is 2040, based on certain growth, etc.

www.statista.com

Global lithium mine production top countries 2023 | Statista

In 2023, Australia was the world leader in terms of lithium mine production, with an estimated output of 86,000 metric tons.
www.statista.com www.statista.com

some better math:
www.motorbiscuit.com

As Electric Cars Are Built, Will Lithium Run Out?

As electric cars are produced, the demand for lithium steadily rises. But will there ever come a day we run out or the resource?
www.motorbiscuit.com www.motorbiscuit.com
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As always there are many versions of the truth. There is a huge supply of lithium in salt water.

Of course it is harder to extract but economics will decide when it becomes cost effective. But we won't run out in the foreseeable future. BTW I am not suggesting we should, we have plundered enough of the Earth's resources for our own selfish needs.
 
idlemarvel said:
As always there are many versions of the truth. There is a huge supply of lithium in salt water.

Of course it is harder to extract but economics will decide when it becomes cost effective. But we won't run out in the foreseeable future. BTW I am not suggesting we should, we have plundered enough of the Earth's resources for our own selfish needs.
Click to expand...
Yes as you say, I think there is also a lot of Hydrogen in Water as well, but costs and fuel to extract will always be an issue. Little point in getting Hydrogen or more Battery power for that matter if it costs more in Co2 to save some.
 
The good thing about hydrogen is that you can make it from water and power that from sunlight. And you can breathe from the tailpipe of a hydrogen-powered car.

extracting and refining lithium is costly, and then the power you charge batteries with needs to be clean, and there are losses everywhere in the system, charging and discharging batteries.

Greg
 
Just a note on storage, all lithium batteries tend to rot if left fully charged for any length of time. Store them at about 70% charge.

As others have alluded to, charging and discharge rate is of more importance than 0.1v difference in charging voltage.

Charging should be about 10-20% of the rated mA/hr of the battery for the sort of applications we use them for. The discharge rate will be shown on high discharge batteries designed for radio control cars etc. but if you keep it at under 3x the hourly rating, 1000+ cycles can be expected.
 
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