educate me please about uk LOCO lamps

[stevedenver]

US locos have, seemingly always, large lamps

i looking over UK locos i often see either white discs -for day running i suppose
and small white lanterns 1 or 2-usually resting on the pilot-ocassionaly on the smoke box-it is these small hand lanterns that i ask about-i having one of UK design from south africa, which i have retro fitted with an electric bul-they put out some light but not a lot compared to say a larger style light-i cant imagine traveling at speed and having enough light to avoid overrideing the light

why is this the case? or is it?
were night operations limited?
do you Britains possess superior night vision?

when i see UK built locos in use in colonies (not US !) or in India-they are fitted with large lights 

 

[Martino]

Lamps on British locos - at least on the 4'81/2" - used a lamp code for indicating the train type rather than to see where they were going.

Some railways, notably the Southern Railway (and I believe some Scottish lines) used discs for the same reason.

Have a look at this...

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/basic16.htm

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[peterbunce]

Hi Steve,

Our headlamps were really position lamps, insofar as the indicated the sort of train, and were NOT for illumination of the track.

Don't forget that our trains were controlled in steam days by signalmen is cabins alongside the track, they watched the light and if they were out stopped the train to have the fault fixed. They also had the working timetable (which is much larger than the public timetables) that gave all the train type and train timetable.

Our now superceded system relied on signalmen who controlled the trains in effect. The driver & fireman looked out to see if there were any obstuctions etc but they did not use American, or Colonial style headlights at all. We now have some brighter lights, thiose have to be dimmed when trains (on double tracks) approach each other - because night vision wouold be ruined. Now the many signalboxes on any railwway line have been replaced by large power systems and track circuits etc, and they actually control the trains as they have a moving indication of their location, and can IF required change its track or path, though that requires a lot of consultation.

The signalmen were the successors to (very ) early railway policemen who controlled trains in daytime by flags, no night trains then - when those started signalmen were needed.

Yes at night it was dark especially in the country, the guard who had nominal control of the train (& passengers if they were aboard) also kept a lookout (via the duckets) so there were 4 persons looking out on atrain and its route the signalmen changed for different signalboxes, and IF a train di not show up at the next signalbox along the signalbox operators raised the alarm.

Everything was stopped till the train was found!

Yours Peter.

 

[Martino]

I think the assumption was that the signals were illuminated, so you could see them and the track was fenced so there shouldn't have been people and things wandering about on the line. More important that the signalman could identify the train type.

...that and the Brits eat lots of carrots!

 

[KentKeith]

I think the assumption was that the signals were illuminated, so you could see them and the track was fenced so there shouldn't have been people and things wandering about on the line. More important that the signalman could identify the train type.

...that and the Brits eat lots of carrots!

Martin,

You beat me to it......I was going to mention the carrots

 

[KeithT]

Trains ran at the same speeds at night as during the day because they were controlled by signals not the view ahead from a lamp.
Apart from the Southern Region which tended to use electrically powered lights for the express locos all running lights front and rear on steam trains were paraffin lamps with bullseye lenses.
Have a look here and scroll down the page to loco Headcodes.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/3-sigs/bellhead.htm

 

[stevedenver]

thanks to all 

much better understanding -things were in essence automated  

and limited need of actual visibility for train safety 


loved the southern chart too-now i have a bit better understanding of my many picture books of locos with the seemingly musical chairs of lanterns  -pics at the platform-in the yards -on the line 

 

[Steveford666]

The lamps on steam locos were parafin fueled. They were useless for seeing where you were going. They were for the signalmen to recognise the type of train as stated and for other people letting them see you were coming along, but all regions had other codes. On the Great Eastern, three lamps across the buffer beam (or discs in day time) meant the train was going from Temple Mills to Ripple Lane and beyond (Southend Central) or they were going from Temple Mills to Hither Green. One on the top, one in the middle and one on the right was for Norwood / Feltham I think. Top, middle and left was for Acton or Willesden.

The diesels kept this system up by having folding discs with holes in to allow the electric lamp to shine through. Oil tail lamps still had to be used until 1966/67 time. Electric multiple units had electric lamps and did not need an oil lamp. But the diesels / electric locos, even though they had electric lamps, still had to put a tail lamp on.

The American built class 59 (59001-59005) had those projection lamps in the middle with a daylight (main beam) or night (dipped beam) settings. I nearly killed some workers in Hampstead tunnel becasue some idiot entered the tunnel with the lamp still inthe daylight position. I couldn't see the workers. I complained (so did the workers) and the daylight position was removed. Later class 59's had the headlamps on the sides, much lower down.

The new pure white halogen lamps are a curse to anyone working in the other direction.

 

[KeithT]

The lamps on steam locos were parafin fueled. They were useless for seeing where you were going. They were for the signalmen to recognise the type of train as stated and for other people letting them see you were coming along, but all regions had other codes. On the Great Eastern, three lamps across the buffer beam (or discs in day time) meant the train was going from Temple Mills to Ripple Lane and beyond (Southend Central) or they were going from Temple Mills to Hither Green. One on the top, one in the middle and one on the right was for Norwood / Feltham I think. Top, middle and left was for Acton or Willesden.

The diesels kept this system up by having folding discs with holes in to allow the electric lamp to shine through. Oil tail lamps still had to be used until 1966/67 time. Electric multiple units had electric lamps and did not need an oil lamp. But the diesels / electric locos, even though they had electric lamps, still had to put a tail lamp on.

The American built class 59 (59001-59005) had those projection lamps in the middle with a daylight (main beam) or night (dipped beam) settings. I nearly killed some workers in Hampstead tunnel becasue some idiot entered the tunnel with the lamp still inthe daylight position. I couldn't see the workers. I complained (so did the workers) and the daylight position was removed. Later class 59's had the headlamps on the sides, much lower down.

The new pure white halogen lamps are a curse to anyone working in the other direction.

I had wondered about those blazing blue-white lights how anyone could see approaching them. It is not as if it's rocket science to direct the beam.

 

[vsmith]

One key difference was that British trains ran thru developed city and farm land with interconnected stations relatively very close to each other on fairly highly engineered roadbeds and infrastructures. American trains often ran thru wild open county with stations often far spread out on fairly primitive infrastructure that could be washed, burned or slide out by the elements and often thru free ranges where livestock or wild animals could always be around the next bend. In England the need to see far ahead of the track wasnt really seen as being necessary as the stations acted as eyes and ears where as in the states it was considered an extreme necessity for self preservation when traveling at night. Many a train was saved from destruction by the headlamp illuminating bridge washouts or herds of cattle on the tracks at night.

 

[Steveford666]

Keith T. Your eyes get drawn those bright lights like moths to a flame. I have missed speed restriction boards because I was blinded. Many complaints have been put in, but no one wants to admit they are too bright for the UK. The same thing goes for those cars with them that are not adjusted properly. For a few seconds you are blinded.

 

[Zman]

I think the assumption was that the signals were illuminated, so you could see them and the track was fenced so there shouldn't have been people and things wandering about on the line. More important that the signalman could identify the train type.

...that and the Brits eat lots of carrots!

Martin,

You beat me to it......I was going to mention the carrots

a nice bit of misinformation used in WW2 to hide the fact that we had radar!

and a lot of carrots

 

[C&S]

To amplify Martinos earlier posting:-

The Southern Railway (and its pre-grouping constituent parts) used a system where the discs (daytime) or lights (night) indicated the route of the train; remember that these lines, particularly in the London suburban area, were high density passenger carriers and so differentiating the type of train was less important. As an aside, the same codes were used on several different routes where this would not cause duplication. In earlier (pre-1923) days diamonds, and discs with different coloured crosses were also used to provide even more code variety. These companies also employed an extra pair of lamp brackets usually mid-way up each side of the smoke-box again to give more variety (see picture below). After electrification, number codes were used by electric trains.

The Great Eastern used white dics and also ones with a dark "blob" in the disc's centre - not sure what colour as I've only seem b/w photos - think this was also route identification for suburban trains for the same reason as the Southern lines (perhaps someone with GER knowledge could confirm). At least one Scottish pre-group company used small semaphore arms on the top of the smokebox lamp position, again for route identification, I believe. (Caledonian Rly or North British??)

Edit: Having looked at the picture, perhaps I should explain further - the loco is working a push-pull train, and the crew have left the disc in place (Paddock Wood to Hawkhurst, in this case) but have added a red tail-lamp for the return trip when the coaches, including a driving trailer, would have been leading. In this case the route code would have been shown on the coach end for the journey back to Paddock Wood.

 

[Martino]

I also seem to recall some pre grouping (Scottish I think) locos had small semaphore indicators in place of lamps to indicate routes etc.

...bit uncertain on that being a dyed in the wool GW man!

 

[Steveford666]

The Great Eastern did use the white boards with a black "spot" that left a three inch band of white showing around the outside edge. A bit before my time though. The only pictures (in black and white) I saw was of these boards being used on the "Jazz" services to Enfield and Chingford. I could be wrong though.

I presume that as there was a hell of a lot of local services leaving Liverpool Street, some of which used the main line to Bethnal Green, to prevent confusion for the signalmen, these were used to show the trains turned left there. They used to run 33 trains an hour during the peak at one time. Plus loco movements around Liverpool Street, which meant reading of manuals and timetables was an impossibility, it was an easy way to identify where the trains were heading for.

 

[George]

Lamps on British locos - at least on the 4'81/2" - used a lamp code for indicating the train type rather than to see where they were going.

Some railways, notably the Southern Railway (and I believe some Scottish lines) used discs for the same reason.

Have a look at this...

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/basic16.htm

Dont forget the great eastern!