Gas or coal

M

mitchell coe

Registered
Hello been to Stoneleigh and quite taken by Sabre coal fired annette, I would like peoples general views before buying one, ie is coal really any better than gas, does the extra time fiddling about make it any more enjoyable, I like my live steam gas locos, and my only reason for coal would be authenticity and the smell, is this reasonable enough to warrant buying one. I would appreciate others views please many thanks Mitchell Coe
 
Can't see the magic of coal firing as an alternative means of firing to gas.I couldn't be bothered with the extra expense and work involved to get an inferior result of the same end product as gas.If you like the smell of burning coal get an open fire in your home,especially if you get a down draught,at least the stench is free.Stick with gas.G gauge is too small for coal firing,it ain't practical.
 
Take into account that gas or meths is a compromise but practical means of getting the pleasure of running live steam.
 
mitchell coe said:
Hello been to Stoneleigh and quite taken by Sabre coal fired annette, I would like peoples general views before buying one, ie is coal really any better than gas, does the extra time fiddling about make it any more enjoyable, I like my live steam gas locos, and my only reason for coal would be authenticity and the smell, is this reasonable enough to warrant buying one. I would appreciate others views please many thanks Mitchell Coe
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It depends how authentic/ hard you want life to be. Coal firing is as close as you can get to most steam locos' operation, but it does increase expense, complexity of operation and maintenance. In G scale, my own view would be avoid it. Beyond G scale (3 inch gauge etc) it becomes a practical and rather desirable proposition.
 
Dear Mitchell,

I own a Roundhouse Lady Anne, Accucraft Ruby (actually a friend gave me this, very kind and it's a sweet little engine) and a Sabre Steam Annabel amongst other things.

I run them all, each has it's appeal and I wouldn't be without any of 'em. Operating a coal fired locomotive has such a romance and appeal though, something those who don't own or operate a coal fired loco may not appreciate. My Lady Anne is fully radio controlled, including the whistle, something my Annabel has no room for, everything, including its whistle is manual. But then its such a hands on machine, it doesn't really matter.

As far as operating my Annabel, it is a complete joy, every run is a little different. Maintenance comes down to regular cleaning, its much more intensive than say the Lady Anne. But, strangely I enjoy the process and I am so well acquainted with this loco because of it. Aside from that, it requires no more maintenance than any other good quality loco.

So, is it worthwhile going for the Sabre Steam, its a simple decision really (cost aside). If the challenge of firing your own little dragon and the sense of satisfaction that that provides, and the thought of your coat smelling of burnt coal whilst sipping a beverage excites you (as it does me), then there you have it.

If on the other hand, you really prefer to plonk yourself down on yer seat and sit quietly whilst your pride and joy chuffs past your nose, then gas is ideal.

Me, I love both and am fortunate to be able to experience either.
 
Thank you so far Its a big decision for me as the sabre engines are baround 2700 pounds, very interesting responese so far my thanks for these early thoughts, how long does the Annabel run for once up to pressure, ie can you just keep puttting more coal on and water the tanks, for say an hours run Thanks again Mitchell Coe
 
Good morning Mitchell. There have been some interesting comments so far which prove that coal firing is not for everyone. Apart from a couple of gas fired locos I have two coal fired locos - a Sabre Steam Annette and an Accucraft Edrig that I converted myself using a kit from DJB Engineering. I enjoy running them all, and it depends on how much time I have and what I want to run on my railway as to which loco I fire up. Coal firing is wonderful but it takes time and a little patience and there is definitely a learning curve when you're a beginner. I've had a few problems with my Annette which I overcame and it now runs very well, but without my Edrig I wouldn't have appreciated that things weren't quite right. Unfortunately the Annette was my first coal fired loco - the Edrig came along later, although I'd ordered the conversion kit before the Annette - so the learning curve was very steep for me. In comparison the Edrig was a revelation when I first steamed it and I began to appreciate why Tag Gorton is so enthusiatic about his. My suggestion to you would be to get a Ragleth from DJB Engineering as a first coal fired loco. If you get hooked you can move onto a Sabre Steam loco and sell the Ragleth (if you wanted to part with it). A major advantage of the Accucraft based locos is that they are easier to clean - and you must keep coal fired locos clean - the coal dust and ash combined with oil makes for a wonderful and efficient grinding paste. But on the other hand spares for the Annette and other Roundhouse based locos are easily obtained. Do you have anyone close by who has a coal fired loco? Trying one out would give you a good idea of whether or not its for you. Unfortunately second hand coal fired locos are few and far between.
Good luck with your decision. If you do go for coal fired, you are guaranteed fun, but in a different way from running gas fired or meths fired live steam.
Steve
 
Just to add a little more information into the mix here. G scale (and below) is not the only scale to run on gas. In Canada virtually all the 7 1/2" (yes half) gauge locos run gas fired. They don't want to risk forest fires. These guys get no less pleasure from running them than I do, with coal. Getting good coal can be (mostly is) a problem. Common house coal is often very tarry and leaves a lot of residue in the fire tubes. There may also be a minor problem of dropping hot ash on your track.

My advice would be, if you think it's for you, then give it a whirl, you don't have to keep the loco if you hate it. It's been said that there are few secondhand ones, which tends to suggest to me that most people ARE happy with them.

Good luck! Do tell us how you get on.
 
Mitch,

I run my Annabel anywhere between 1.5 - 2 hours, although a 2 hour non-stop run can be a bit of a challenge. Having said that, I did make the modification to my grate recently (discussed elsewhere under Edrig I think, Steve??) and this has made quite a difference to the behaviour of the fire. It is much more consistent now, whereas before it would get clogged with ash and want to sulk (threaten to go out), requiring constant attention in the form of prickling the ash into the pan, once the run extended beyond an hour.

I too have been eyeing off the DJB Ragleth conversion... surely another loco wouldn't hurt, now would it.. surely not!

Regarding coal supplies, there is a chap in the UK that ships all over the world, cannot recall his name right now but I have 20kg's of Welsh Anthracite, works a treat.
 
I am also tempted by the idea of coal firing but I have held back for reasons that have not been mentioned in the discussion so far, namely the type of line I want to run it on.

Watching coal fired engines at shows it seems to be that they need fairly frequent close quarters attention so need a line where most of the track is easily accessible and raised off the ground to some degree. Most of my line is raised by about 18 inches but a lot is not that accessible, being a dogbone design.

I'm not sure what Mitchell's line is like but are my concerns valid?
 
funandtrains said:
Rhos Helyg Loco Works said:
Coal is a lot cheaper than gas!
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Not if you buy the packs of low tar coal sold for small scale live steam locos, the cheap Polish coal sold for house fires is not much good.
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Just buy a bag of anthracite grains supplied for solid fuel boilers. I have a £10 bag of this that will see out my natural life with my coal burners. Then just use a couple of lumps of coal from your local preserved railway just to add a bit of smell.
 
funandtrains said:
Not if you buy the packs of low tar coal sold for small scale live steam locos, the cheap Polish coal sold for house fires is not much good.
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I use anthracite grains bought from my local coal merchant. This is the stuff that is used in hopper-fed domestic central heating boilers.
I paid about £5 for a sack of it in 1998, which I finally finished earlier this year (yes, 13 years for one sack!). I've just bought another one, which cost me £15.
By sack, I mean something that needs both hands to lift and is 50% larger than, say, a bag of sand that a builder's merchant would sell.
 
Rhos Helyg Loco Works said:
funandtrains said:
Not if you buy the packs of low tar coal sold for small scale live steam locos, the cheap Polish coal sold for house fires is not much good.
Click to expand...
I use anthracite grains bought from my local coal merchant. This is the stuff that is used in hopper-fed domestic central heating boilers.
I paid about £5 for a sack of it in 1998, which I finally finished earlier this year (yes, 13 years for one sack!). I've just bought another one, which cost me £15.
By sack, I mean something that needs both hands to lift and is 50% larger than, say, a bag of sand that a builder's merchant would sell.
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This is all fine, but I would expect you'll notice a difference in the new bag. Coal detiorates with time once extracted from the ground. Try, as much as possible, to keep it reasonaby airtight, as it's the lighter oily substances that evaporate first. Also try to maintain a low constant temperature in storage. Better still share a bag around as many people as possible so that you can get a new one as often as possible. Signal Fuels can supply Welsh Steam Coal in beans also Maidstone Engineering sell small qtys.
 
In answer to Steve's comment about Polish coal - judging by what my neighbour burns, only if you want yellow smoke!
In answer to Philip's question, it is definitely easier coal firing on a raised track - have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5KZ0GM2HeA
However I believe Tag's track isn't raised so he manages to coal fire at ground level, like a good many others I suspect.
Anthracite is much harder than normal coal so deterioration shouldn't be an issue (unless it's not really anthracite). I paid £8.50 for a 25kg bag last year Tony. You were robbed!
Steve
 
Ferrysteam said:
Can't see the magic of coal firing as an alternative means of firing to gas.I couldn't be bothered with the extra expense and work involved to get an inferior result of the same end product as gas.If you like the smell of burning coal get an open fire in your home,especially if you get a down draught,at least the stench is free.Stick with gas.G gauge is too small for coal firing,it ain't practical.
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Each to their own of course and I run both gas and coal fired locomotives BUT ? coal is hardly an inferior result and it is certainly practical. A gas fired locomotive will run for a set time. Its fire entrains its own air and therefore the locomotive does not respond to the pull on the drawbar by increasing the heat from the fire. It is, if you like, a simplified locomotive without a proper Stephenson front end. One can run coal all day, attending to fire and water every fifteen minutes or so, during what they nowadays call a station stop. After years of running gas I am getting a huge amount of pleasure from my coal fired locos.

There is of course a significant learning curve ? bit like learning to drive, whereas one can fill a Lady Anne with gas, water and oil, before handing it over to a child to run if wished ? they are fairly foolproof. It all depends on what one wants from one's locomotive. If, for instance, one wishes to run a garden railway with radio controlled steam locomotives in the same way as one would run a track powered steam outline locomotive then go with gas. Indeed if one has no experience with either gas OR coal then also go with gas ? you can always change later if you want to ? and you will have gained valuable experience that will stand you in good stead when and if you move on to coal.

While I won't buy or build another gas locomotive, I will keep one R/C gas and one manual gas for those times when I want to offer other people a run with an R/C loco or I want something that is quick and easy for running on an unknown railway. otherwise
 
400Parker said:
In answer to Steve's comment about Polish coal - judging by what my neighbour burns, only if you want yellow smoke!
In answer to Philip's question, it is definitely easier coal firing on a raised track - have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5KZ0GM2HeA
However I believe Tag's track isn't raised so he manages to coal fire at ground level, like a good many others I suspect.
Anthracite is much harder than normal coal so deterioration shouldn't be an issue (unless it's not really anthracite). I paid £8.50 for a 25kg bag last year Tony. You were robbed!
Steve
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Not quite Steve. I would not run at ground level. My line is either in cutting/tunnel/ground level at the back of the garden and raised 16in off the deck at the business end. I run my coal fired locomotives (or gas) from my GWR station bench at this end of the railway ? and rarely have to get up...
 
mitchell coe said:
Thank you so far Its a big decision for me as the sabre engines are baround 2700 pounds, very interesting responese so far my thanks for these early thoughts, how long does the Annabel run for once up to pressure, ie can you just keep puttting more coal on and water the tanks, for say an hours run Thanks again Mitchell Coe
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I have a Shawe Fowler derivative at 3,500 sovs (my retirement pressie and a lovely beast) and a DJB Edrig at about a third of this price. I have a DJB Ragleth on the way and this locomotive (in common with the Edrig) will have working automatic draincocks and resonator whistle. All up and ready-to-run this proven coal fit will cost around 1800 sovs and, given that i get as much pleasure from Edrig as I do from the Fowler, has to be the best value on the market. It should be pointed out that Accucraft service spares will soon be in operation 'off the shelf.' They are available currently on application to AccucraftUK but the new system will be very much better. My Edrig has done many hours of running and, because of its ergonomic design and practicality of use, gets more running than anything else in my stud. Proper and punctilious cleaning has meant that there is no obvious signs of wear after three years running.
 
Well wow what a response I think for certain I will order a Ragleth I spke to Paul at DJB what a great help he was a proper man to deal with, thank you all and thankyou Tag your final pst has convinced me I will start with a small engine and if I enjoy it I will have to work hard and get Sabre steam or similair much later kind regards to all for the help, but keep the helpful posts coming in it was exactly what I needed Mitchell Coe
 
funandtrains said:
. . . even if the misses will complain you are dirty and stink of coal (and oil.)
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That's if you use that cheap and nasty Polish coal you mentioned, Steve :)
A good decision I think Mitchell. If you find coal firing's not for you I'm sure there'll be a ready market for a 2nd hand Ragleth. And if you get hooked (you will.... you will ....) then you'll be able to sell the Ragleth and move on to a Sabre Steam loco. (But I bet you keep the Ragleth as well!).
Have fun and make sure you let us know how you get on.
Steve
 
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