Health Warning about Home made smoke oil, and a test

nicebutdim

nicebutdim

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Sorry for bringing up an old thread here. I've given a go of the 50/50 lamp oil and bbq lighting fluid mix, it works, but not to my liking. I tried it first in my Stainz loco, in which it smoked quite well, so I gave it a go in Frank S. Hmmmm, results were a little disappointing. Firstly only a small amount would produce smoke, anything more than 3-4 drops and nothing would be produced. Secondly, when smoke is being made the vapour builds up on the dome directly behind the funnel in quite large quantities, to a point where it dribbles down the side of the dome. I was going to try it in my new USAT GP9, but after the poor result with Frank I really didn't want to chance it.
The one thing that really did put me off though was the warning on the Citronella lamp & torch oil. Apparently, even in VERY small quantities, it is fatal, causing extreme lung damage. I can only imagine that as it is not being cleanly burnt in a smoke unit that the airborne droplets are therefore just as dangerous, as they can be inhaled directly into the lungs.
So, in summary, I really do not recommend this method. It doesn't smoke too well unless in a 24v smoke unit, and when it does it'll probably cause some serious, harmful health issue. :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Oh that is timely. Gson no 1 has just trodden on my large bottle of smokefluid and spilled more than half. I was just about to 'invest' in some BBQ fluid and citronella oil.:impatient:
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

I actually found it quite hard to find the bbq lighting fluid, eventually coming across it in a Sainsbury's petrol station. All I could find before was the gel, which when mixed with the lamp oil ends up looking more like a sample of bodily fluids that can only be produced by males :'(
I certainly will not be trying anything more with the citronella oil, and will certainly give a bit more time to reading the labels on anything similar before buying again.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

So is the 50/50 mix safe? I know it should not be directly inhaled but I can be in the trailer (with the front and both ends open) for up to eight hours or more at shows.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

I could smell the vapour in the air from at least 6ft away, in the open air with very little wind. By the way, this was before I read the rear of the bottle. Anywhere enclosed, indoors or out, I would strongly recommend not to use it. If you can smell it, then you're inhaling the droplets.
I think it's best to play it safe with this stuff guys, and just steer clear of it. Maybe in a lamp with a naked flame the vapours are probably burnt, or rise quickly away. But in these smoke units it is merely warmed to become a vapour, which produces the visible 'smoke', which I found hangs about in the air for quite some time.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

yb281 said:
I've tried it, but I must admit I've not been impressed either with the amount of smoke produced or with the horrible sickly smell which I find nauseous . It also seems to seep out all over the shop.
Click to expand...
I found that too. And it doesn't matter how much you try to be careful with it, it seems to get everywhere. I'm suffering with one of those dull headaches and the sickly feeling that accompanied trying a cigarette for the first time. (I gave that up luckily a few years ago). I was only exposed for a very short period of time, never again.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Here's the official warning; http://www.lamplight.com/Consumer/KnowledgeBase?KnowledgeID=2285 < Link To http://www.lamplight.com/...?KnowledgeID=2285
Reading different bits on the 'net, people have died, mainly through ingestion, from citronella lamp oil. It is mistaken by children for apple juice and it kills in mere hours.
I know there can be over reaction to certain 'rumours' and here say, but this is really nasty stuff. It causes pneumonia and also prevents the lungs from allowing oxygen into the blood, and the effects are permanent.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Crickey! Nice but dim please edit the title to something like
EXTREME DANGER!!!!!!!
as you full title does not fit in the box. I bought some of these fluids with a view to using them. I have gone out to the shed & put them in the bottom of the bin in case the Kids get hold of them.
Thanks for posting the warning , I never noticed the label.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

This subject of smoke oil and smoke units comes up on alot of forums often. I believe the reason is that we are never really satified with the results we get when we drop some oil into a smoke unit, and give it a go. Yes, there are some smoke units that produce great quantities of smoke. But how long while they last, the unit itself I mean. And it can be a pain, during long show sessions, to keep an eye on your locos with smoke, while keeping the guest's questions answered and their little ones off the layout.
Last year, on My Large Scale forum, I suggested an alternate method of producing smoke. It may sound like a wacky idea, but give a listen, as my grandmother used to say. I don't know what you guys call them over there, but they are known as "punks" over here. At least in and around Philadelphia. Looks like a stick of dried weed, covered most of it's length with a brownish substance that will burn and give off a rather pleasant oder, IMHO. Like incence cones. Why not come up with a way to drop one of these into a smoke stack, lined with some sort of metal, of course. It will most likely produce as much smoke as an LGB 5 volt unit. And you never have to worry about the smoke unit burning out. Just some thoughts on the subject as crazy as they may be.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

nicebutdim said:
The one thing that really did put me off though was the warning on the Citronella lamp & torch oil. Apparently, even in VERY small quantities, it is fatal, causing extreme lung damage.
Click to expand...

I would love to hear their reasoning behind this... Many oils/oil mists are skin/soft tissue irritants, and will do the same to the upper respiratory system. Burn the stuff however, and one gets carbon monoxide, which, in concentration especially in un-ventilated areas can be fatal.

The amounts used in a model smoke generator would not be much to worry about, other than (prolonged) dermal contact.

Whoda thunk my past coursework in industrial toxicology could be usefull with trains?
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Right, so we now know that Citronella can be harmful BUT - is the ordinary lamp oil and BBQ fluid mix ANY SAFER?
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

I suppose cost is a major consideration but health is more important - which is why I asked the question about the 50/50 mix - and probably why no one will commit themselves to answering it directly!.

I take daily and weekly medication - the latter can have fatal side effects - but at least I'm aware of the risks. I'm not being funny, but if there is a safer way of producing the smoke then I'd like to know.

Also it comes down to availability which, in my case, means buying from the UK. Royal Mail do not like inflamable liquids etc (neither do airlines) so it can be difficult. When you operate 5 or 6 different locos over a 6 or 7 hour period, you do get through quite a lot.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Has anyone tried to find out what the real stuff is made of

i have a disco fog machine and ive tried the fluid from that and nothing happens i suspect its to do with higher temp in the mains fog machine but ive just found this link which might be worth a try for any budding chemsits out there it seems gloucous and distilled water so maybe dilting it may work i will give iot a go and report back
http://www.bigclive.com/smoke.htm

Tony
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Disco machine fog fluid is usually 80% water or more and 20% glycol, glycerene which is why there are no hazard warnings on it, or else you could wipe out a roomfull of kiddiewinkies pdq...... Good luck on your experiments, dont inhale.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Thanks for the safety advice Nicebut... Perhaps the main problem is the efficiency of the smoke unit - I installed a Hunter Systems ( http://shop.huntersystems.co.uk/the-smoke-generator-8-c.asp < Link To http://shop.huntersystems...moke-generator-8-c.asp ) geny and use their oil - lasts well over 20 mins per fill and (see my 'Smoke' link below) generates plenty of smoke.

As with car maintenance, I spend money on the brakes before the polish, so for safety and satisfaction my vote is for the 'official' stuff :thumbup:

Regards
Rob
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Spule 4 said:
nicebutdim said:
The one thing that really did put me off though was the warning on the Citronella lamp & torch oil. Apparently, even in VERY small quantities, it is fatal, causing extreme lung damage.
Click to expand...

I would love to hear their reasoning behind this... Many oils/oil mists are skin/soft tissue irritants, and will do the same to the upper respiratory system. Burn the stuff however, and one gets carbon monoxide, which, in concentration especially in un-ventilated areas can be fatal.

The amounts used in a model smoke generator would not be much to worry about, other than (prolonged) dermal contact.

Whoda thunk my past coursework in industrial toxicology could be usefull with trains?
Click to expand...
That's the issue, the amounts used in a model smoke generator is enough to worry about. Even the warning on the bottle has a rather unprofessional, 'even a sip is fatal'. The amounts of vapour that build up on the loco shows how much is expelled into the air, especially if you're using dcc where it can be running even when stationary and the vapours are purely being released straight up. Put it this way, if you can smell it then you are ingesting it. I'm not too happy that you are dismissing this warning, it is simply dangerous, why take the risk!
I and another member have mentioned about the nauseating effects, that is your body giving a warning that something is disliked by it.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

robsmorgan said:
Thanks for the safety advice Nicebut... Perhaps the main problem is the efficiency of the smoke unit - I installed a Hunter Systems ( http://shop.huntersystems.co.uk/the-smoke-generator-8-c.asp < Link To http://shop.huntersystems...moke-generator-8-c.asp ) geny and use their oil - lasts well over 20 mins per fill and (see my 'Smoke' link below) generates plenty of smoke.

As with car maintenance, I spend money on the brakes before the polish, so for safety and satisfaction my vote is for the 'official' stuff :thumbup:

Regards
Rob
Click to expand...
I completely agree, IF anything else may come as a suggestion from anywhere about a alternative fluid, i'll be sure to do my homework on it first. To be honest, when I first heard of the citronella fluid the first thing that came to my mind was something natural and non-toxic, citronella sounding like citrus, I thought like a lemon oil based product. Now I realise how stupid that sounds :rolf:
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

trammayo said:
Right, so we now know that Citronella can be harmful BUT - is the ordinary lamp oil and BBQ fluid mix ANY SAFER?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I didn't mean to try and skip around your question. Honestly, I don't know. I can only say that there is still a level of the Citronella fluid present, and heating it with bbq fluid is just adding more hydrocarbons to the mix in the air.
Just a quick thing I've found out, the LGB smoke oil has exactly the same warning on it, with a warning not to breathe in the vapours.
 
Re:Home made smoke oil, a test and a health warning!

Madman said:
This subject of smoke oil and smoke units comes up on alot of forums often. I believe the reason is that we are never really satified with the results we get when we drop some oil into a smoke unit, and give it a go. Yes, there are some smoke units that produce great quantities of smoke. But how long while they last, the unit itself I mean. And it can be a pain, during long show sessions, to keep an eye on your locos with smoke, while keeping the guest's questions answered and their little ones off the layout.
Last year, on My Large Scale forum, I suggested an alternate method of producing smoke. It may sound like a wacky idea, but give a listen, as my grandmother used to say. I don't know what you guys call them over there, but they are known as "punks" over here. At least in and around Philadelphia. Looks like a stick of dried weed, covered most of it's length with a brownish substance that will burn and give off a rather pleasant oder, IMHO. Like incence cones. Why not come up with a way to drop one of these into a smoke stack, lined with some sort of metal, of course. It will most likely produce as much smoke as an LGB 5 volt unit. And you never have to worry about the smoke unit burning out. Just some thoughts on the subject as crazy as they may be.
Click to expand...
That sounds like a really good idea, along with the idea above of incense sticks. Time to go experimenting! (safely, this time, lol)
 
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