LGB knuckle couplers ..........hurumph! LGB engineering..not everything is good

beavercreek

beavercreek

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I have a bee in my bonnet, an LGBee......and being stung is not a pleasant thing to be. :@

I have an Amtrak consist including two LGB Genesis locos , 1 LGB Materials handling car and 5 LGB Amfleet coaches and they all have the LGB knuckle couplers that they were produced with (except the materials car where I replaced the original hook and loop ones with LGB knuckles). While the knuckles on the coaches and the ones that I put on the materials car seem to do their job most of the time, the ones on the locos are just .....pants. They are loose, unstable and they slide up and down releasing each other when under any tension above slow pulling on the level.

I have had many runaways with the LGB knuckles, when climbing the heavy gradients on my layout.
Bachmann and even the Aristo or USAT streamliner cars do not exhibit this, except for one time where one of the USA Trains couplers on a string of 6 aluminium streamliner coaches gave way under the strain (which is a great deal of weight as more than one visitor to my layout has experienced when holding the coaches at the top of the gradient). LGB amfleet coaches are plastic and pretty light in comparrison to the Aristo and USA Trains metal streamliners.

On Saturday at Coggesrail's (Ian) open day the Amtrak train also exhibited the wonderful way that the loco parts company with its load. Only the use of strong garden wire wrapped around the couplers managed to keep everything together.
The Genesis locos were new and so damage had not occured to the couplers. I have checked them and ther is no way to 'tighten' the coupler to the bogie fixing point.
Now this would not be a real problem if it were possible, as it is on other makes of locos and even other LGB locos, to replace the couplers with in my case Aristocraft knuckles, but this is not easy to do without doing some very major work on the bogie/coupler mounting system (wrapping wire around the couplers is fine but not obviously ideal). The way that the mounting and swivel system works, allows the coupler to have a lot of 'wiggle' in every plane. This then allows the coupler to slide up under strain, releasing the linked coupler and thus causing a 'breakaway'. This happens with both locos being the second in the consist so it is not just one 'problem' loco.

The locos, coaches and even the materials car are very good models but not everything LGB is a fine piece of designed engineering and these knuckle couplers are an example of 'eye off the ball' quality control. The loco was designed by LGBoA but it still was passed as a project by the main LGB quality control system.
The problem with the coupler would only really show itself when under a lot of strain so this is why I cannot find any mention of a defect with the couplers. It seems to be only the locos that have this due to the complex method of the very long coupler arm mounting design

Has anyone else had issues with these knuckles.
Not so important, of course, but LGB's just also happen to be the most ugly and least prototypical of all knuckles

Hey ho....................

End of bee

At Ian's open day

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Coupler slides up

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Wire to the rescue

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Sorry to see you have problems with with LGB couplings Mike :wits:
That's the first time i've ever seen the LGB knuckles as you don't even get the choice when you buy a freight car just the standard hook & loop at lease you get the choice with Bachmann USA Trains & Aristo my LGB wagons are fitted with USA Trains with the Hook & loops sold on E bay .
Hope you solve the problem soon could you use the Hook & Loop just on the parcel car and second loco :thinking:
 
Two observations -

The coupler on the loco #174 appears to droop down. This is not beneficial when placing the jaws under load as simple mechanics dictate the coupler will shift vertically. Side effect of engineering for the infamous R1 rule.

Secondly, the materials car has metal wheelsets. Are these the exact diameter of the plastic wheels replaced? If not then the loco is not only coping with a drooping coupler but trying to lashup to a mismatched height coupler.
 
Never had (or heard before) any problems with LGB knuckle couplings. There are two types and yours on the Genesis will be the newer type. The ones on the wagons may be the older type but they are compatible. The only gripes I have with LGB knuckles are that they are far too large and they couple trains with far too large a gap.
Bachmann knuckles look better but on LGB stock you need a DIY fix to prevent couplings from drooping and to self centre them. The best looking and the most reliable though are Kaydee's. Never had a problem with those.
 
Tim Brien said:
Two observations -

The coupler on the loco #174 appears to droop down. This is not beneficial when placing the jaws under load as simple mechanics dictate the coupler will shift vertically. Side effect of engineering for the infamous R1 rule.

Secondly, the materials car has metal wheelsets. Are these the exact diameter of the plastic wheels replaced? If not then the loco is not only coping with a drooping coupler but trying to lashup to a mismatched height coupler.
Click to expand...

Hi Tim
I am ahead of you on this
The couplings on both locos have so much play. In the photo the materials car's coupler is in fact pushed to the side and it seems to droop down but is in fact really at the same level. The vertical play on the materials car is minimal while on the locos is way way too much.
The wheel sets on the materials car are just right as the couplers on the materials car matches the coaches exactly so it is not the materials car that is the problem...if it was then some of the time the there would be breakaways between the coaches and the materials car....this has never happened and they can be seen to match exactly at rest.

If it was easy to change the couplings on the Amtrak kit then I would just do that but due to the way that LGB have engineered the mounting system this is not an easy prospect at all.

Hi Vasim
You are right about the large distance between the cars when using LGB knuckles. The way that they are engineered does not allow easy 'adjustment' like with replacement Aristo, Bachmann, USAT etc. I use replacement Aristo or Bachmann knuckles (on one string I use the original hook 'n' loops :'( I will change those sometime) together with originals and they have never, never had breakaways except the once as I reported in the first post in this thread and the weight of the cars pulling back down the gradient, in that instance, would have tested even Kadees!

I will probably have to come up with a way of temporarily 'binding' the couplers between the last loco and following car so that they can also be easily uncoupled when needs be. Maybe drilling holes in the couplers for dropping in a strong staple/nail could be the answer........... or going back to link and pins! :rolf:
 
Adverse Camber fits all his US LGB stock with KayDees.

It's a simple enough conversion job, and the original LGB couplings can be re-instated if required....
 
i ave a problem as well...so im into big grabber on the knuckle..not like on beavercreek knuckle couplers..coz when it climb up .then went unlock it...strange..
then check it and take if off and test it myself and it wasnt not good at all!! so richie ask me to use another one in grabber like round fist..not like normal shape like block..awful and pissin me off.....lol..now i use the grabber..better!!
 
Gizzy said:
Adverse Camber fits all his US LGB stock with KayDees.

It's a simple enough conversion job, and the original LGB couplings can be re-instated if required....
Click to expand...

As I said in the post Gizzy...
I replaced the hook 'n' loops on the material car with LGB knuckles so I could, if I wanted, change to kadees...
BUT
The Amtrak locos are totally different in the way that the coupler is made and is connected to the block....................
 
I have two phase IV Genesis and six cars fitted with the type 2 factory fitted knuckle couplers and I have never even considered the cars ever detaching. I do operate ten foot curves on a dead level trackbed.

If your curves are big enough then consider permanently attaching the rear pilot to the underframe and solidly mounting the coupler. Refer to the Amtrak thread on the Modelling forum on LargeScale Central.
 
the loco was designed by yanks_LGBOA-i was initially not impressed with the in ability to install a hook and loop, and the damned reversing lights, but somewhat niggling -but certainly not the thorough track/product testing from the germans

made by the chinese -with delicate styrene-rear view mirrors, wipers, plow steps on the truck-sooner or later, something will break-trust me-i have been super careful and its not been enough


as you know i really like the entire amtrak train products

but the real drag is you cannot fit a hook and loop to the loco-only a loop-which is what i originally did to allow for the stock mat handling car
a less than minor cock up given the LGB compatibility mantra -

i dont have a solution for you-except using a loop on the loco and, perhaps a hook with the drop portion of the shank removed (don tknow if this is viable as i never tried to actually execute)

the only other thought i have-and i doubt it will make a difference-is that IF the knuckle is chinese-use a german made-although i understand it is the plane of the pull-but was also unclear if the knuckle was springing open

you might shorten the train-but i wouldnt like this option -but it is seemingly the load

frankly while not pukka-i like your wire solution-i use it frequently with live steam operations and all the wonky variations in couplers
perhaps simply using stock loop on the loco to the mat handling car-also with hook and loop at its loco end- , and a bit of wire on the locos loop to hook over the mat handling loop-sort of a hinged drop hook

i too have had issues with uncoupling-between cars-no reason other than i think slack
george scherer (SP?) makes a good point of burnishing out all molding imperfections so that the pin drops easily and without binding, and a bit of graphite as well

last thought-oversized kadees-i understand they are reliable-but they may not solve the issue if it simply a drooping coupler

think ill look into the 'trimmed hook' solution tonite -
good look
 
Tim Brien said:
I have two phase IV Genesis and six cars fitted with the type 2 factory fitted knuckle couplers and I have never even considered the cars ever detaching. I do operate ten foot curves on a dead level trackbed.

If your curves are big enough then consider permanently attaching the rear pilot to the underframe and solidly mounting the coupler. Refer to the Amtrak thread on the Modelling forum on LargeScale Central.
Click to expand...

Well Tim you are lucky to have only 10 ft curves and dead flat track. My layout has 8ft to 20 ft curves (flexitrack mostly following the garden perimeter) and is far from flat (3 ft climb over about 20 odd feet). The cars were only detaching from the loco at the steepest part of the climb as the strain is the highest.
On Saturday at Ian's (coggesrail) open day the track was more or less flat and was very even and they still separated from the loco until the application of wire to bind the couplers. At the open day the locos were pulling 5 amfleet coaches and one material car which is more than I use at my layout so the load was heavier even though it was on the flat.
I have considered the permanent fixing solution but do not want to dramatically alter the loco (see my reply to Steve below).

Hi Steve
The couplers are just 'loose' feeling as they can be 'waggled' in all planes. The jaws do not spring open they (the loco one) just slide up and over the first car one, releasing the coupler. I could cut the tang (the LGB coupler on the loco has a very long neck) and replace the coupler with a long Aristo one but I do not really want to do this to the Amtrak locos as I may have to sell them (lets hope not but you do have to think of the future) and although I have mucked about with other locos, I feel that these ones are just a little bit too special.
 
well
i pulled out my genesis and it doesnt appear you can use a hook -even trimmed-as there isnt space for the spring
i think your wire solution is the best and least intrusive to the original model
 
Yeah Steve, I feel that the wire is the way to go. I am still looking at drilling each coupler to take a drop in 'nailgun' staple. This could then leave the coupler to be used as an original or as a 'reinforced' jobbie for my application. The problem is finding a suitable drill spot that corresponds to the width of the staple.
 
Wouldn't one coupler rising above the other also lift the staple from the hole, resulting in them uncoupling again? Or will the staple prevent the coupling from being able to rise out?
Sorry if that makes no sense whatsoever! :D
 
Hi Tim
Makes perfect sense.
I had thought of that and was going to make the hole in the trailing car a tighter fit so that the 'staple' would stay in thast when the loco coupler was riding up. As the coupler would not be doing a 90 degree (to the plane of the couplers) slide up, the force on the staple would be at a slight angle as well. This would increase the resistance to it being pulled out of the hole......hopefully :nail:
 
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