LGB native sound stops on freeze or power off.

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Cliff George

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<p>I have noticed that both of my LGB locos with native LGB sound stop making sound after a power off or freeze. The only way to restore sound after one of these events is to turn the cab switch to a 'sound off' position, and then back to a 'sound on' position.</p><p>Has anyone else noticed this issue? Some of my other locos have Dietz sound and with those this issue does not occur.</p><p>I was wondering if this is related to my DCC system, which is be Lenz, and also possibly by the fact that I am running these engines with 28 speed steps. Does anyone with an MTS system notice this issue?</p><p>This is not a big issue for me but I do find it a pain having to reset these units after a power off or freeze.</p><p>Regards</p><p>Cliff</p>
 
it sound like its the 28 speed step thingy, lgb factury fitted sond locos are on 14 by standard.. have you re programed the chip to acept 28?
 
Would be handy to know what locos are doing this?

I have found that many LGB older sound equipped locos are not too happy with digital systems

When I ran F7s with both MTS & Massoth I had problems with the generic LGB sound system fitted into the B units,

the number of speed steps made no difference

It appeared that the capacitors fitted to the sound units were the cause of the problem, it was overcome by isolating the capacitiors, however I was never really satisfied with the sound, so I eventually replaced the LGB sound PCBs with ESU loksound decoders, which gave superb sound.
 
Thanks for the help guys.

I know that I have successfully programmed these locos to 28 speed steps, which is the default on my Lenz system, and is supported by LGB decoders, because I know that the lights do strange things if the speed steps are incorrect, but the lights work fine. Thanks for the advise, I know about turning the sound off while programming, actually it is better to select one of the switch positions where the motor is still on, but sound off, rather than 0, because it is through the motor that the feedback to the digital system that the CV has been changed comes.

The locos are an F7 and a GE 4/4 II. I have no complaint about the sound in either case.

Unlike Paul after the sound goes off after a power off or freeze, the only way to recover it is to do a hard reset (i.e. turn the sound unit off and then back on again). Playing around with the function that turns the sound on, or anyother function, doesn't have any effect.

I guess I'll just have to live with this issue.

Thanks for the help once again.

Regards
Cliff
 
<p>Hi Cliff, </p><p>This is probably no help but I did have a look at NMRA recommended practice RP 9.2.4 March 1997, Fail-safe Operating Characteristics. This specifies two possibilities (1) the Digital Command Station has retained information about the previous state of the system, or (2) it has not. </p><p> In case (1) "the Digital Command Station shall send a minimum of 20 decoder reset packets followed by a minimum of 10 idle packets These packets shall be sent prior to sending any packets which contain operating instructions to the layout. The (ten) idle packets are to insure that the Digital Decoders exit service mode." </p><p> The RP is not worded very clearly but it then goes on </p><p> "if this follows only a minor interruption in power such that the Digital Decoder has valid speed and direction information, it is permissible for the Digital Decoder to continue operation. Otherwise the Digital Decoder shall bring the device being controlled to its initial defined state (which for locomotives is a complete stop)" </p><p> </p><p>I have not been able to find any specified behavior with regard to sound, but in case (1) above, I would expect the decoder to receive a 'sound on' command after the initial reset and idle. In case (2) the decoder should revert to its initial defined state. In neither case would I expect the sound module to require a hard reset. </p><p>I cannot find anything in the instruction manuals for my native LGB sound chipped locos that suggests that you need to toggle the sound module to reset it. And my LGB native stuff is packed away for the winter, so I have not been able to try this. </p><p>Does the Lenz system 'remember' the operating status on switch on? From what I understand reading the Lenz LZV100 manual (section 6.2) this feature is user selectable. Personally I do not like the idea of automatic start up at the last speed and direction, but it might help with the annoyance of sound cutting out. </p><p>It is definitely no help to you to tell you that the sound on my Massoth decoder restarts perfectly after a power off. Its just that I have not set the loco database in the Massoth 'central station' and I have to reprogram the decoder addresses! And that has to be on the programing track, so guess what my next project is! The Lenz system seems to do this automatically (section 7.4 of the manual, craftily hidden below the title about setting the track voltage!) </p><p> I have a horrible feeling that you have encountered another LGB specified feature of their decoders which is different to what everyone else does. If it ever stops raining I will attempt to get one of my LGB native locos out to try it and let you know what happens. </p><p>Don</p>
 
<p>Hi Cliff, </p><p>It stopped raining and I got one of my LGB native DCC loks out for test. I was a bit surprised at the results. </p><p>With a Massoth Digital Command Station 1200Z set to automatic (ie, lok in database, lok status preserved) my Massoth chipped lok will resume the previous set speed and direction after an emergency stop or main power off. If the speed control was set to stop before resetting / powering up the system, the lok will still accelerate to speed with the handheld flashing a discrepancy. If the system was not set to remember the lok status, then the lok would remain stationary when the system was reset or powered up. If the handheld speed control was not at stop it would flash as a discrepancy until the control was set to stop. In all cases the sound and lights would be on if they had been on before the interruption. </p><p> With the same central station in automatic setup, the LGB chipped lok would not restart after a power off, and the lights would no longer be illuminated. The handheld would flash a discrepancy until the speed control was set to stop. After an emergency stop, the lok would accelerate back to speed with lights again illuminated. In both cases the sound would automatically restart. If I switch off the sound on the handheld then restart the system the sound does not come on until I operate the appropriate key, but if I operate the shutdown sounds and wait till the lok is silent then after a reset the start up sounds and standing sounds automatically come on. </p><p> So there are clear differences in the way that the Masoth XLS and the LGB decoder operate after a power interruption, although they seem to have similar responses to an emergency stop. While I do not have your unusual sound behavior, I have a lighting variance, but nothing that requires a switch to be operated on the lok. </p><p>What version of software do you have (value of CV8)? My LGB chip is version 30, manufacturer code (CV7) 123 = Massoth. However the manufacturer code for LGB is 159, so its possible my pre-owned RhB Ge4/4 III has been rechipped, but its the spaghetti Albula special version so I doubt it. I have also noticed in my LGB 'manual' that CV54 has two bits for sound, but no explanation of what they do. I tried setting them and could not find any changes on a very quick test. CV54 does something completely different in the Massoth XLS decoder (sets which function key controls lights). NMRA RP-9.2.2. states that CVs 47 to 64 are reserved for manufacturers use.
</p><p>Sorry this has probably been no use in solving your problem, but at least I was inspired enough to fit the two way switch to my programing track, after its been sitting about waiting for me to find some enthusiasm. So thanks for that! </p><p>Don </p>
 
Don, Thank you for your very extensive help and response. Where to start with a response!
I cannot find anything in the instruction manuals for my native LGB sound chipped locos that suggests that you need to toggle the sound module to reset it.
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Neither can I.
Does the Lenz system 'remember' the operating status on switch on? From what I understand reading the Lenz LZV100 manual (section 6.2) this feature is user selectable. Personally I do not like the idea of automatic start up at the last speed and direction, but it might help with the annoyance of sound cutting out.
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Had me confused at first there since my LZV100 manual doesn't have a section 6.2! However I checked the latest version on the Lenz web site and it is there. I have an earlier version with 3.5 software, and it doesn't have the ability to be configured to remember the last speed and direction and resume those after a power off. What it does remember is the function settings and sets those up again, but not the speed and direction. I agree that the automatic start-up of speed and direction is not a very good idea.
It is definitely no help to you to tell you that the sound on my Massoth decoder restarts perfectly after a power off. Its just that I have not set the loco database in the Massoth 'central station' and I have to reprogram the decoder addresses! And that has to be on the programing track, so guess what my next project is! The Lenz system seems to do this automatically (section 7.4 of the manual, craftily hidden below the title about setting the track voltage!)
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Yes, on the Lenz system, as soon as a loco is referenced from anywhere and there is no loco database entry for it in the LVZ100 then it is added automatically.
I have a horrible feeling that you have encountered another LGB specified feature of their decoders which is different to what everyone else does.
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Could be, like the way some of the sound functions work on LGB turn a specific function on and bell/whistle/horn/announcement is made, turn it off again and the same sound is made again. Everyone else (well its configurable on Massoth and ESU) the function off either does nothing or turns the sound off! This creates a lot of problems for me because RR&Co software assumes the former and consequently doesn&rsquo;t control LGB sounds very well. I have some correspondence on this issue if interested. Thank you for the information about what happens to Massoth and LGB chipped locos on your Massoth system. It seems that on both Paul&rsquo;s MTS system and your Massoth system the symptoms I get requiring a hard reset to restore sound on LGB chipped locos cannot be reproduced. I think that next time I go to someone else&rsquo;s railway with a different DCC system then I&rsquo;ll try and reproduce the problem with my locos. It seems that maybe my issue is somehow related to my Lenz DCC system. I could possibly try upgrading to the 3.6 LZV100 software and see what difference, if any, that creates.
What version of software do you have (value of CV8)? My LGB chip is version 30, manufacturer code (CV7) 123 = Massoth. However the manufacturer code for LGB is 159, so its possible my pre-owned RhB Ge4/4 III has been rechipped, but its the spaghetti Albula special version so I doubt it.
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I checked both of my LGB decoder equipped locos and like your loco both have 123 in CV8. I know full well that these were purchased DCC ready and so I guess like in your case LGB just got it wrong! One of my locos has version 25, the F7, the other has version 35, the GE 4/4 II.
Sorry this has probably been no use in solving your problem, but at least I was inspired enough to fit the two way switch to my programing track, after its been sitting about waiting for me to find some enthusiasm. So thanks for that!
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Glad to help! Actually perhaps it has helped me to solve my problem. Many thanks again for all the effort you have put into this. Regards Cliff
 
Hello all,

I know I'm joining this thread several years too later, but I'm just wondering whether it ever got resolved?

I have exactly the same problem, Cliff: I have MTS Central station Mark I (55000) and a 55016 Loco Remote. Every time a put my new GE 4/4II on the track it requires - exactly as you say - a HARD RESET in order to get the sound going again. It's very annoying having to toggle the cab switch as I have a ceiling layout!

Would be great if you guys could shed some light.

Thanks very much!

Alex
 
Alex,

My guess (having seen the different ways different makes respond) is that it is down to different interpretations of the NMRA standards..

Not a lot of help, I know.
 
PhilP said:
That might depend on how 'new' the new GE 4/4 II is!
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Hmm, could be Philip. Except that my (much older) RhB crocodile with sound, that I personally fitted with decoders some 10 years ago, does not suffer from the same issue. When you cut power to the line, and then power it up again, the sound kicks in just fine.

I'm wondering whether it's something to do with the newness of the Ge 4/4II compared with the oldness of the CS Mark I. There was bound to be something that didn't work smoothly. It's incredibly frustrating though...
 
Alex Howard said:
Hmm, could be Philip. Except that my (much older) RhB crocodile with sound, that I personally fitted with decoders some 10 years ago, does not suffer from the same issue. When you cut power to the line, and then power it up again, the sound kicks in just fine.

I'm wondering whether it's something to do with the newness of the Ge 4/4II compared with the oldness of the CS Mark I. There was bound to be something that didn't work smoothly. It's incredibly frustrating though...
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Thanks for your response, though!
 
PhilP said:
That might depend on how 'new' the new GE 4/4 II is!
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The GE 4/4II was purchased only last month, but seems to work under series command fine. Indeed, it responds to the whole gamut of functions - whistles, bells, announcements etc - but only if you toggle the cab switch once the tracks powered down! Very very strange...
 
Alex Howard said:
The GE 4/4II was purchased only last month, but seems to work under series command fine. Indeed, it responds to the whole gamut of functions - whistles, bells, announcements etc - but only if you toggle the cab switch once the tracks powered down! Very very strange...
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So (ignorance on my part) is this a brand new model? - If so, is it supplied new, with a MFX decoder fitted?
 
PhilP said:
So (ignorance on my part) is this a brand new model? - If so, is it supplied new, with a MFX decoder fitted?
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Hi PhilP,

Yes, I assume it must have an MFX decoder installed. Could this be the problem since me CS is Lenz Mark I? It's just so strange that all the other digital functions work perfectly - it's simply the requirement for hard reset on sound post power-down...
 
Alex Howard said:
Hi PhilP,

Yes, I assume it must have an MFX decoder installed. Could this be the problem since me CS is Lenz Mark I? It's just so strange that all the other digital functions work perfectly - it's simply the requirement for hard reset on sound post power-down...
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It is very difficult to pin down exactly what the limitations of MTS 1 are apart from only being able to set 8 addresses (7+1), serial commands and very limited CV programming (usually restricted to CV1). This was the normal advice from LGB themselves. I have seen reports of others being able to program other CVS.

Given that you appear to have an MFX equipped loco would it not be better to consider the purchase of a more modern Central Station? There are many to chose from the likes of Massoth, ESU, Marklin and many others.
 
Yes, you're right... I'm beginning to think a new CS might be the way forward. What would you recommend ... I hear a lot about Massoth. Is there an issue with compatibility at all?

Thanks very much,

Alex
 
Alex Howard said:
Yes, you're right... I'm beginning to think a new CS might be the way forward. What would you recommend ... I hear a lot about Massoth. Is there an issue with compatibility at all?

Thanks very much,

Alex
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As I mentioned in my previous reply there are a number of Central Stations that fit the bill. It is really down to which one suits your own circumstances. I would recommend visiting as many different users before making up your own mind.

Many of the German manufacturers have gone for the option of using a smart phone or tablet to control their locomotives. ESU, for example, have a Mobile Control II controller which communicates wirelessly with their ECOS Central Station. Here is a link: http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control. I personally use the Maerklin CS2 (shortly to be upgraded to the CS3) largely due to the fact that it instantly recognises MFX equipped locos without the need to change any CVs. Each MFX chip has a unique code. The CS2 and 3 too can be controlled by a smart phone or tablet and has its own dedicated App. This means that you do not have to purchase a separate handset.

You could also consider the Massoth CS. Massoth was involved with LGB from its early days and produced the first sound card for them.
 
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