Maintenance of Running Gear

JoelB

Registered
In the Live Steam thread Pearse "Earl" for Sale, Tag Gorton made an excellent point about the proper cleaning and lubrication of running gear. Roundhouse recommend using multi-weight motor oil, others have endorsed blue 3-in-1 oil, still others mention sewing machine oil; there's likely someone out there using whale oil (very un-PC) or perhaps rendered goose grease.

What do you recommend? What would you avoid?
 
I would follow the manufacturers recommendation.
 
Don't forget that the oils that you use on metal running gear is very different to those you would use on LGB's plastic gear - or indeed any plastic parts.
 
I use the Hob-e-lube set

The thick oil for the con rods, prop shafts (it's a Shay) and UJs. Steam oil obviously. Black graphite grease for the crown & pinions and the light oil (Medium in the pack) for the axle boxes.


:bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile:
 
A splurge of steam oil nicely mixed with general detrius from the last run... just teasing I am not quite that bad.
I use what's in my oil can (spare vw/audi engine oil at the moment) and clean it all carefully afterwards. Seems ok so far.

This does interest me though, and I am a little doubtful such care is essential. Compared to a machine used for utilitarian purposes even the most ardent steam head can't put that many hours into what is a fairly simple mechanisim (yes I know it's a big boys toy but it's not taking you to work every day or putting bread on your table so it is a toy not a tool in my eyes). I can see steam oil is essential but the motion would surely put up with a lot?

So anyone got a picture of a horrendusly warn motion from ill care- a bit like you would get if a cam lobe got oil starved in their car? Genuinely interested. Of a model of course not a real one where the need is obvious. I maybe wrong maybe my hour or two max a week is very light use?

I like oiling and cleaning mine as it is part of the ritual and I am very fond of it! But if I did it every third time would it really matter?
 
JoelB said:
In the Live Steam thread Pearse "Earl" for Sale, Tag Gorton made an excellent point about the proper cleaning and lubrication of running gear. Roundhouse recommend using multi-weight motor oil, others have endorsed blue 3-in-1 oil, still others mention sewing machine oil; there's likely someone out there using whale oil (very un-PC) or perhaps rendered goose grease.

What do you recommend? What would you avoid?


I can only comment on steam locomotives. John Lythgoe is the expert on the proper lubrication and maintenance of track powered models. I should also say that I am not an expert, merely someone that has been using these little dragons for quite a long time.


For a start it is very easy to be cavalier about this subject. one often sees people may a great play of oiling round before a run. Fine ? I have done it myself ? and if a gas fired locomotive is used comparatively rarely this will largely be fine. There is a however however. Every two or three runs one should degrease everything below the footplate and start again. If coal fired do this job after every running session and it will pay dividends in terms of longevity.


I use water soluble spray degreaser from yer actual motor factors. A good old spray, wait ten minutes and spray again, working the stuff in with a brush. I then pressure wash the stuff off and leave to drip dry on a pile of newspapers for an hour. I then do all metal to metal bearings with a drop of WD 40 with the thin red tube so it does not go everywhere. Avoid the piston rods because 0 rings do not like WD. leave overnight somewhere warm and sitting on fresh dry newspaper. The following day upend your pride and joy and oil every bearing surface punctiliously (plus piston rods). I use heavy steam oil. Partly because I have it to hand, partly because it stays where it is put and partly because I do this job regularly and so there is no build up of oil and detritus mix to form an excellent grinding paste.


I have a coal-fired Edrig (notorious, apparently, for wearing pretty quickly) and it is the most heavily used locomotive (of either coal or gas) in my running shed and has had a couple of years of heavy running. By heavy I mean a) the loco is bl00dy heavy in itself, b) I pull heavy trains and c) I use it a lot. Were you to come and feel my rods
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or even look at my running gear, you would think it near new...

I have a set routine now for all my engines and, despite being naturally lazy, I find I quite enjoy doing this. Partly of course, because I am set up for it, but also I think because it is part of the running experience. When I degrease the running gear I also spray cab floors and other areas where oil and grease accumulate and this too helps to keep a locomotive in pristine condition.

Now, I know all the arguments about remembering steam locomotives in filthy condition. True yes, but they did keep them as clean as man hour costs would allow (except right at the end) and in earlier years many locomotives were kept in superb condition. On another thread we were discussing the W&L Earl. Well I had a Countess that my friend Paul Fletcher weathered to' workaday clean.' It looked superb but looked far mankier than it actually was. There is another loco long since sold 'Sir George Harvey' and this was weathered to filthy... Still clean tho.

A word on oil. I can only quote Mr Kipling (not the cake man) in that there were a hundred different ways of conducting tribal lays ? and every single one of them was right.' Now I dunno what a tribal lay is (certainly not what passed through my mind I suspect) but different oils for different ways of running. I degrease and re-oil all the time and so I use heavy steam oil at point of wear. If I was was just re-oiling then I would use light motor oil or indeed sewing machine oil, because it would not allow a build up of 'paste' in the same way ? not so good tho' (IMHO) but I am certainly not gonna issue orders on this. I have listened to several expert builders of locomotives (both private and commercial) and all have different ideas and all will give particular reasons for their choice.

A tip from someone else (and I can vouch for the results). If you have a SH locomotive in manky condition with a build up of brown oil staining, wait till the domestic authority goes shopping or visiting here toyboy
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and then run it through the dishwasher. I know I don't have to tell you guys to remove any radio control equipment first. After re-oil as before ? and there you have a sparking new look.
 
Not only is Tag a steamie guru he is telepatic answering my question before i post it. so a complete degrease every third go and oiling is ok for as gas fired lightly used machine!
 
Oh, I'm going to regeret this I have a feeling .....

I hate to contradict Tag who I have the greatest respect for (us sailors stick together!), and I'm no oil guru, but I am (or was) an engineer, admittedly for much bigger engines - but steam oil isn't really the best thing for bearings - it is designed for a much hotter environment, and also to operate when in an emulsion, IIRC. I also have a feeling it won't like the pressure exerted upon it in a bearing. Our little engines my only have 15mm/ 5/8ths in. cylinders, but those bearings are tiny! Think - 60 pounds per square inch pressure acting on the piston, all pushing on that ickle bearing. It's a lot.

Any real oil gurus are welcome to shoot me down now!

The best thing that we are likely to have handy at home is that motor oil. Old stylee 20/50 is probably the best. Steam oil is for cylinders, (not chainsaw oil as I saw someine using on a US forum a while ago...eeek!).

NHN #ducks#
 
I couldn't agree more about the cleaning regime though, Tag!
 
New Haven Neil said:
Oh, I'm going to regeret this I have a feeling .....

I hate to contradict Tag who I have the greatest respect for (us sailors stick together!), and I'm no oil guru, but I am (or was) an engineer, admittedly for much bigger engines - but steam oil isn't really the best thing for bearings - it is designed for a much hotter environment, and also to operate when in an emulsion, IIRC. I also have a feeling it won't like the pressure exerted upon it in a bearing. Our little engines my only have 15mm/ 5/8ths in. cylinders, but those bearings are tiny! Think - 60 pounds per square inch pressure acting on the piston, all pushing on that ickle bearing. It's a lot.

Any real oil gurus are welcome to shoot me down now!

The best thing that we are likely to have handy at home is that motor oil. Old stylee 20/50 is probably the best. Steam oil is for cylinders, (not chainsaw oil as I saw someine using on a US forum a while ago...eeek!).

NHN #ducks#


Interesting Neil. Some recommend steam oil others car oil etc etc. I also am not an oil boffin but just prefer something that does not run out of the bearing easily. As you say a nice 'old fashioned' heavy car oil might well be better. If I can find any
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meanwhile what can I say? The regular cleaning seems to keep my running gear in excellent nick ? but if it can be improved upon I will go with it....
 
Gun oil is the thing to use,steam oil is too thick to enter the micro spaces that is on our miniature engines,we have to use scale oil,not stuff we would use on the big engines.It's got to get in small spaces and not be acid like 3in1.
 
Not wishing to add fuel to any sparks/smoke. Modern engine oil is designed to lubricate, protect against corrosion, and stay put under pressure and raised temps, much higher than will be found in our use. It is also probably well thin enough to enter our close fit bearings.

On the anti-corrosion point, I often, when making steel parts that will never be painted, rub them for several minutes with a cloth and plenty of engine oil, after they have been finished. There are many parts on Jill that have been there since I built it in 1993 that are still rust free, with only the (very) occasional repeat treatment with an oily rag. It is of course essential to remove as soon as possible any substance that is likely to cause corrosion, such as coal ash.
 
My two pennies worth as a mechanic is as Tag said a good clean out of the old oil is essential before applying new lubricant, the mix of oil and abrasive dirt and byproducts is a lot like grinding paste! as for what type of lubricant? I would go with a light weight motor oil as has been mentioned a heavy oil will not get into the small clearances used on the axle bearings and motion in our little engines. To sum up regular cleaning and oiling of the motion is an essential part of running what is a close tolerance machine of any sort.......................Paul...............
 
I asked Morris Lubricants about what to use and I now use CFS Compound Steam Cylinder Oil 460 in my displacement lubricators and CBT Compound Bearing Oil ISO 220 for oiling round. The 460 oil is similar to the heavier steam oils, like that sold by PPS (though I don't know if Alan Whitaker sources it from Morris Lubricants) and the 220 seems to be similar to the Roundhouse steam oil.
You can see the Morris Lubricants range of steam oils at http://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=29&sortField=description
They say of the Steam Cylinder Oil 460 that it's "produced from special cylinder stock treated with fatty compounds to provide superior lubrication even if wet conditions are encountered. The fatty compounds form emulsions which spread the oil on the internal surfaces, providing a strong lubricating film where needed to protect bores and valves. This is particularly important where very wet steam has to be handled at the cylinders, or water treatment chemicals are carried with the steam. ISO460 is for use with saturated & light super heat steam upto 250lbs/sqin."
And of the Compound Bearing Oil ISO 220 "They can be used for bearings, gears, slides, and general railway applications, and in these situations they can provide lubrication in wet conditions. They are also recommended for use in older types of railway rolling stock axle boxes with plain bearings. These grades have excellent feed characteristics for worsted wool wicks and axle bearing pads. The ISO 100 is specially recommended for use in the crankcase of West Country steam engines." Perhaps a bit OTT for our little dragons but there again, they do deserve the best!
Happy lubricating!
Steve
 
3-1 have another product, an electric motor SAE-20, different beast, use it without problems in the past. Many US steamers use it, how I started using it, along with my pre WWII Lionel trains.

Again, the cleaning is important.
 
Again not wishing to add 'fuel' or diffculty.

An SAE 20 is a fairly thin, single grade, oil. and eminently suitable for electric motors which do not have a wide temp range (this temp range could also be true for parts of our steamers). Single grade oils get thinner as the temp rises as we probably would expect.

Current motor oils are multi-grade. That means that at a given temp they have a given grade. As they get hotter their grade changes to that of an effectively thicker oil, or in other words they do not thin out in quite the same way a single grade oil does. Hence we get 10-40 oils (and others). This means that when cold it behaves like an SAE 10 oil, but when hot it is like an SAE 40 (and all grades in between as it gets hot).

I will not speculate whether this is good or bad for our use, but suggest that where the manufacturer quotes something particular, it is for a very good reason known to him and probably not to us, so stick with it, especially during the warrenty period.
 
Good discussion!

I think the information Parker 400 got from Morris is about what I said - just on more technical terms!!!

I have a feeling that cylinder oil is a vegetable oil, the machine oil is certainly a mineral oil. Off to research....
 
I use Morris compounded bearing oil 220 on all my 16mm locos for cylinder lubrication. It is what Roundhouse use as Steve says. It was introduced by them to reduce deposits in the superheater and it works just fine. I have other grades here but never use them on this scale now.

On the other hand, I never use it for lubricating the motion as it is slightly sticky and holds on to the dust and grit. I do use it on big 7 1/4" gauge though for bearings and it is excellent. On 16mm I use straight SAE 20 (an old can of "Running In oil) - because I have some - otherwise I would just use multigrade.
Cheers
Chris
 
tagorton said:
A tip from someone else (and I can vouch for the results). If you have a SH locomotive in manky condition with a build up of brown oil staining, wait till the domestic authority goes shopping or visiting here toyboy
m11.gif
and then run it through the dishwasher. I know I don't have to tell you guys to remove any radio control equipment first. After re-oil as before ? and there you have a sparking new look.

Unfortunetly in our house I am the dish washer! Do forum members know of an alternative method of cleaning brown oil staining from a second hand locomotive?
 
I would think meths or petrol on cotton wool would do the job,outside of course.
 
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