Piko Harz Kamel (37540) WARNING

[Neil Robinson]

I've just read the latest email newsletter from Grootspoor.

My Dutch is very poor, but the following got my attention.
"Graag attenderen wij u erop dat indien u de Piko 37540 in analoge toestand op een digitale baan wilt laten rijden op locadres 0 dat de kans groot is dat u de bestaande verlichtingselektronica in de loc defect zal raken. De loc dient eerst gedigitaliseerd te worden alvorens deze op een digitale baan kan rijden."

Babelfish translates as follows
You gladly point out we that if you want drive let the Piko 37540 in analogous situation on a digital job on locadres 0 that the chance is large that you the existing reduction electronics in the loc will touch failure. The loc must be digitised firstly before these on a digital job can drive.

I therefore suggest that it would be unwise to run an unchipped Kamel on a digital system, and that anyone still wishing to do so would be wise to investigate further.

 

[Spule 4]

Would this not be the case for any DC loco tho? I know it was "the club rule" for a past H0 group ten or so years ago.

I can also remember the YouTube vids of the V60 with the loud hiss being run on DCC...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRfkMprlqGU

The noise reminds me of a Devo tune from the 1970s....

 

[3Valve]

Not necessarily the case for G scale. A lot of unchipped locos do run quite happily in "analogue" mode on a digital system, and they all produce the hiss in varying degrees of volume.

However a few are problematic due to their circuitry and it's advisable (as with the Harz Kamel) to get them chipped beforehand.

I think the Piko railbus was another "iffy" one (ask Mike "Piko killer" Duffy how he knows ).

 

[yb281]

Traditionally there has been no problem with running unchipped locos on digital control. If this is going to be a problem with Piko locos then they should make it very clear to prospective buyers IMO. And, if this is the case, I'm afraid that their mounting reputation will be sadly damaged.

 

[Willem WDLS]

The following loco's need a chip to run on digital without risks:

Harz Kamel BR199
BR204
V60 with blue livery
VT98 (not the red one)


The "problem":
ACHTUNG : Diese Lok besitzt eine Analogplatine mit Pufferkondensatoren für die Beleuchtung !
Diese Schaltung ist nicht geeignet für analogen Betrieb (Adresse 0) auf digitalen Anlagen !
Es kommt sofort zu einem Kurschluss und die Puffer können zerstört werden !
Source: Massoth

<Edited to include English translation - Gareth (3Valve)>

Diesel locomotive has an analog board with buffer capacitors for lighting!
Diesel is not suitable for analog circuit operation (address 0) to digital systems!
It immediately comes to a short circuit and the buffer can be destroyed!
Source: Massoth

So: PIKO fitted two capacitors to prevent the ligths from flashing when it lowers power for a short period (f.e. between two pieces of track), but they'll burn down when running on digital.


Solution:
(picture showing the underside of the analog board fitted in locos)

Source: spassbahnforum.de

 

[Willem WDLS]

Would this not be the case for any DC loco tho? I know it was "the club rule" for a past H0 group ten or so years ago.

I can also remember the YouTube vids of the V60 with the loud hiss being run on DCC...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRfkMprlqGU

The noise reminds me of a Devo tune from the 1970s....

Most locos run on digital without burning electronics, only the last models of PIKO don't. The weird sound of the red V60 on digital is "normal", my LGB stainz makes the same sound. It's not bad for the analog chip, but it's just the sound that's weird.

 

[mike]

Not necessarily the case for G scale. A lot of unchipped locos do run quite happily in "analogue" mode on a digital system, and they all produce the hiss in varying degrees of volume.

However a few are problematic due to their circuitry and it's advisable (as with the Harz Kamel) to get them chipped beforehand.

I think the Piko railbus was another "iffy" one (ask Mike "Piko killer" Duffy how he knows ).

go on, ask!
very small print, in the back off the instruction booklet(I MEAN!!!! has any bloke EVER read a instruction booklet 1st???)
piko 0-mike 2

 

[dunnyrail]

None of this surprises me. In the past I have run both LGB and Bachman Locomotives UNCHIPED on MTS. I did not like the hiss in spite of all the words saying that it was OK.

SO I DO NOT DO IT ANYMORE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. JonD

 

[ntpntpntp]

[unchipped locos on MTS] ... DO NOT DO IT ANYMORE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. JonD

Absolutely, and neither would I. Just take some time to google about what happens to some motors in small scale locos (especially coreless motors). OK, so the larger motors in our bigger toys may not be so susceptible to rapid damage through heat build up but to my mind it's just not worth the risk. If you run DCC, fit a decoder. Simples!

 

[Spule 4]

Exaxtly, LGB always called for very filtered DC. Had to do this for the H0e for the Fulhaber (coreless) models too for the reason mentioned above.

 

[Willem WDLS]

[unchipped locos on MTS] ... DO NOT DO IT ANYMORE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. JonD

Absolutely, and neither would I. Just take some time to google about what happens to some motors in small scale locos (especially coreless motors). OK, so the larger motors in our bigger toys may not be so susceptible to rapid damage through heat build up but to my mind it's just not worth the risk. If you run DCC, fit a decoder. Simples!

Exactly my thought!

 

[3Valve]

I'm a digital user too so I understand the viewpoint here re: chipping, but there are still a lot of analogue users out there who visit other peoples DCC lines and I'm sure they wouldn't want to go the expense of chipping their loco's just for this.

 

[dutchelm]

I'm a digital user too so I understand the viewpoint here re: chipping, but there are still a lot of analogue users out there who visit other peoples DCC lines and I'm sure they wouldn't want to go the expense of chipping their loco's just for this.

However, I don't think they would appreciate their loco being broke after having the wrong type of electric up it.

 

[ntpntpntp]

I made sure I can switch my track power to analogue DC when friends bring locos round to play or when a new purchase arrives and needs a test run! (I can still operate the points on DCC as they're fed by a separate DCC power bus not via the track).

I can take my chipped locos to my friends lines, they have Aristo TE's (not the orange ones!) set to linear DC mode so the decoders are quite happy.

 

[vasim]

Piko seemingly turn out models with some very iffy motors. In HO scale their models will run perfectly okay on analogue, but when fitting a digital chip they start to give problems. I use Roco and Lenz silver and gold chips that work perfectly in other manufacturers locos but put them in any Piko model and they jerk, stutter or don't run at all. Swapping chips around makes no difference. A letter to Piko came back with the reply that they only recommend Uhlenbrock digital decoders, which I find very difficult to get hold of. I'm not sure if Uhlenbrock do decoders for G scale or if this problem is confined to their smaller scales.

 

[whatlep]

Piko seemingly turn out models with some very iffy motors. (snip)
A letter to Piko came back with the reply that they only recommend Uhlenbrock digital decoders, which I find very difficult to get hold of. I'm not sure if Uhlenbrock do decoders for G scale or if this problem is confined to their smaller scales.

I doubt that anyone has evidence of "iffy"ness. Piko have been going a long time and have a good pedigree. The motors they use for G scale products have different characteristics to those from LGB/ Marklin, mostly down to being 5-pole rather than 7-pole, but they have proved entirely reliable in service on my line.
Uhlenbrock do make G scale decoders. Piko's is a badged Uhlenbrock 77500. You can find details at http://www.uhlenbrock.de/ and order directly from them for Euros 59 plus P&P (except that they are out of stock as I write!). That said, all the Piko locos I've had on my layout - mostly other people's - have used Massoth decoders.

 

[stockers]

Massoth here - no iffyness.

 

[ntpntpntp]

Piko seemingly turn out models with some very iffy motors. In HO scale their models will run perfectly okay on analogue, but when fitting a digital chip they start to give problems. I use Roco and Lenz silver and gold chips that work perfectly in other manufacturers locos but put them in any Piko model and they jerk, stutter or don't run at all.

Classic symptoms of the RF suppression capacitor interfering with the decoder BEMF, which is why it's often recommended to remove the suppression capacitor when chipping. And/or could be the BEMF CV settings (if they're adjustable) need to be different for Piko motor characteristics. Doesn't necessarily mean the motors are "iffy", just different.

Cannot expect a decoder to be able to handle a wide range of different motor characteristics without some adjustment, and of course the range of motors in the smaller scales is much much broader then we see in large scale. Adustment capabilities can vary from nothing, through a simple "choose motor type" setting to a whole page of PID settings for different speed ranges like you get with QSI. Decoder manufacturers normally provide suggested BEMF settings for different brands/types of motor, and folk will post their preferred settings on forums.

 

[3Valve]

I'm a digital user too so I understand the viewpoint here re: chipping, but there are still a lot of analogue users out there who visit other peoples DCC lines and I'm sure they wouldn't want to go the expense of chipping their loco's just for this.

However, I don't think they would appreciate their loco being broke after having the wrong type of electric up it.

Tis a fair point, it's better to chip than risk a hefty repair bill I'm sure.

 

[AshleyH]

Digital PIKO HO Models in the Hobby series are factory fitted with Uhlenbrock decoders that do not have Back EMF (Load Regulation). Hence why they work OK. Snipping capacitors is necessary on quite a few HO models from most manufacturers in order to get good runing qualities under DCC.