Happy Jack
Registered
I've been told that plastic wheels on my freight cars create more "dust" (reduce contact) on my analog indoor layout. Is this true?
Plastic Vs. Steel Wheels
- Thread starter Happy Jack
- Start date
PhilP
G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
To some extent, yes..
Metal wheel-sets add low-down weight, which aids running and stability. They also seem to keep the railhead cleaner?
My theory is the plastic wheels wear (creating plastic dust) but I think they also generate a little static, attracting dust from the surroundings.
PhilP
playmofire
Registered
I use plastic wheels on my rolling stock, often running three trains from 10:30 in the morning to 4:30 in the afternoon with hardly a pause for four days at exhibitions and haven't found dust a problem. What I would find a problem would be the noise of metal wheels on metal track for that length of time each day.
3 minutes of fame
3d printing, electronics and trams
To improve electrical contact, just take a soft pencil and run it along the top of the rail.
The graphite is a reasonable conductor, acts as a lubricant to reduce friction and protects the rails from oxidisation.
We've done this on our exhibition layout and run trains for hours without issue.
Plastic wheels can pick up and transfer muck around layouts more efficiently than metal wheels and are harder to clean properly, that's all. The graphite trick works equally well with plastic wheels to mitigate this however.
The graphite is a reasonable conductor, acts as a lubricant to reduce friction and protects the rails from oxidisation.
We've done this on our exhibition layout and run trains for hours without issue.
Plastic wheels can pick up and transfer muck around layouts more efficiently than metal wheels and are harder to clean properly, that's all. The graphite trick works equally well with plastic wheels to mitigate this however.
Gavin Sowry
Garden Railroader and Raconteur
I've occasionally lost sight of my trains in the trees, then I hear the sound of steel on steel.... and instinctively look towards the back fence to watch the full size train go by, which isn't going by.
-bbbb
Registered
I have noticed an abundance of black dust on plastic and brass track while running stock with black plastic wheels even for a short time(it's noticeable when wiping the track with a tissue or sponge), but I have not had a control group of track running only metal wheels to see if there is a difference.
One benefit of metal wheels is that it makes it easier to get track power to lights in coaches and such. I wonder if anyone has made a metal ring which can be added to standard plastic wheels for that purpose... It might also help with the dust.
I've attached a sponge beneath one box car to wipe the track as it drives, and that seems to help keep the track shiny.
One benefit of metal wheels is that it makes it easier to get track power to lights in coaches and such. I wonder if anyone has made a metal ring which can be added to standard plastic wheels for that purpose... It might also help with the dust.
I've attached a sponge beneath one box car to wipe the track as it drives, and that seems to help keep the track shiny.
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Greg Elmassian
Guest
So this has come up many times over the years.
First, the black dust you see on a track powered layout, i.e. falls between the ties, just below the rails is oxidized brass. I thought it was nuts also, but from track power has many "micro arcs", any electrical engineer will tell you that since the contact patch between wheel and rail is small, the current density is high, and there are small "arcs".
(now to stop anyone that does not know this, watch your trains run outdoors in complete darkness, you will see the arcing between the rails).
Now, funny think is that oxidized brass (from the arcing) is black, not brass colored. (Also we found that oxidized stainless steel is black also).... I did not believe this until a friend and I sampled the "dust" and the grimy black stuff on the rail head. The photo spectrometer analysis showed the proper elements for brass in the exact proportions they should have been.
Now that is metal wheels on (usually) brass track, and track power
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Plastic wheels will wear faster, and often they make dust, but also in warmer climes, they will put a hard black coating on the rail head. This is not great for track power. Which of the 2 effects you get seem to be pretty variable, the only correlation I have been able to find over 20 years is hot railheads gather more plastic.
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My example: track power, stainless steel rails. I get the black gunk, and find that household cleaners, water soluble like 409, Fantastik, etc work great, and are no danger to plastic, and does not evaporate like hydrocarbon based cleaners. Most of these cleaners have some ammonia or other grease cutting ingredient.
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Bottom line, I would not use any plastic wheels on track powered layouts.
On a battery powered layout, buildup on the rails is not such a big deal, but considering how much better cars track with metal wheels, where the extra weight helps keep them planted, especially with the lower center of gravity, I threw out all plastic wheels, and am glad I did.
Greg
First, the black dust you see on a track powered layout, i.e. falls between the ties, just below the rails is oxidized brass. I thought it was nuts also, but from track power has many "micro arcs", any electrical engineer will tell you that since the contact patch between wheel and rail is small, the current density is high, and there are small "arcs".
(now to stop anyone that does not know this, watch your trains run outdoors in complete darkness, you will see the arcing between the rails).
Now, funny think is that oxidized brass (from the arcing) is black, not brass colored. (Also we found that oxidized stainless steel is black also).... I did not believe this until a friend and I sampled the "dust" and the grimy black stuff on the rail head. The photo spectrometer analysis showed the proper elements for brass in the exact proportions they should have been.
Now that is metal wheels on (usually) brass track, and track power
--------------------------------------
Plastic wheels will wear faster, and often they make dust, but also in warmer climes, they will put a hard black coating on the rail head. This is not great for track power. Which of the 2 effects you get seem to be pretty variable, the only correlation I have been able to find over 20 years is hot railheads gather more plastic.
-----------------------
My example: track power, stainless steel rails. I get the black gunk, and find that household cleaners, water soluble like 409, Fantastik, etc work great, and are no danger to plastic, and does not evaporate like hydrocarbon based cleaners. Most of these cleaners have some ammonia or other grease cutting ingredient.
------------------
Bottom line, I would not use any plastic wheels on track powered layouts.
On a battery powered layout, buildup on the rails is not such a big deal, but considering how much better cars track with metal wheels, where the extra weight helps keep them planted, especially with the lower center of gravity, I threw out all plastic wheels, and am glad I did.
Greg
I have plastic wheels on my rolling stock and have noticed a brass colored film develop on the black wheels. I thought it was from the brass track, but now I am not sure after reading other posts, which do not mention this. So why are my wheels getting a brass colored build up?
3 minutes of fame
3d printing, electronics and trams
As above, little bit of oxidising and arcing and the plastic wheels will pick this up and transfer it around the layout.
Try the pencil trick, it will help to reduce the arcing.
Greg Elmassian
Guest
Zman, there are many different compounds of plastic, so I would think some metal transfer could be possible, you could try checking the tread surface for conductivity just for grins. (Use an ohmmeter on a high scale, not a test light)
I doubt if this will cause any issues, but not sure trying to clean this off the wheels would not damage the plastic.
Greg
I doubt if this will cause any issues, but not sure trying to clean this off the wheels would not damage the plastic.
Greg
When it rained and snowed, no doubt
That's not brass, it's gold! You've cracked the mystery of alchemy!
Rhinochugger
Retired Oik
Don't mess about, change to steel wheels.
There are many good reasons for going metal, no good reasons for using plastic
Although you are certainly right, but, to be fair, some people have used plastic wheels for years.Don't mess about, change to steel wheels.
There are many good reasons for going metal, no good reasons for using plastic
Greg Elmassian
Guest
So here is the original question. (and his only post on this thread)
It's not are metal wheels better than plastic for everyone.
So to answer this question, not sure, you can get "dust" from any wheels, but for rolling stock I think you will get more plastic dust.
Also the words in the OP's question "(reduce contact)" are kind of ambiguous.... are you asking if there will be less or more contact with metal vs plastic... that really depends on the wheel contour and more importantly the flange contour, assuming everything else is the same.
I would further ask if this dust is from the freight cars, or perhaps more common, the loco. In my experience, powered locos make a lot more "dust" from arcing than the rolling stock.
Greg
That means my trains are now worth a lot more money. HaWhen it rained and snowed, no doubt
That's not brass, it's gold! You've cracked the mystery of alchemy!
So are you saying that the LGB plastic wheels are not made with the same compounds?
David1226
Registered
I must admit that for the Claptowte Railway I made the decision to fit all rolling stock with metal wheels, even though the stock was constructed with the intention of running it indoors. I chose Al Kramer wheels which I imported from the USA. They are insulated but turned from solid brass which is then bright nickel plated. This was not a cheap option but I feel that these wheels are superior to steel wheels in every way, certainly better than anything I have personally see in the UK. These wheels are very heavy and increase the weight of the vehicle to which they are fitted, but that weight, being low down, lowers the centre of gravity. I paint the wheel centres, backs and axles with track colour, leaving the rims and flanges bright nickel. As I say, expensive, but there are many expensive aspects of the hobby that I do not buy into, so for me, they are a worthwhile expenditure.
David
David