Saxon VIK and VIIK - good candidates for a model? LGB are you listening?

jameshilton

jameshilton

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Further to Jon's question on Andy's thread (http://www.gscalecentral.net/tm?m=220748&mpage=1#220917), < Link To http://www.gscalecentral....8&mpage=1#220917), I thought I'd start a new thread on the subject.

It strikes me that the Saxon VIIK (and related VIK upon which is was based) would make a great addition to the LGB range. I've posted a few prototype photos on my blog: http://ejklr.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/lgb-are-you-listening.html < Link To http://ejklr.blogspot.co....are-you-listening.html

I quote from my blog...
The German 750mm lines have been represented in the LGB range for many years by the excellent and popular IVk mallet. With the forthcoming release of the Saxon IK in the range I wonder if we might see more models in the future?
If sales are strong then I think the Saxon VIIk 2-10-2t (and the VIk 0-10-0t it was based upon) would be an excellent choice.
Both models could share the same chassis, cab and detailing parts, and the 2-10-2t were also exported to Bulgaria for their mountain 750mm system, meaning there are plenty of livery variations for future releases.
Obviously not a simple locomotive to design but the continued success and presence of the Harz metre gauge items in the catalog show that expensive models do sell...

And what of the EJ&KLR? Yes, we'd definitely save up, I live the chunky looks and think that in the Bulgarian livery with the eastern European logo on the smoke box etc they are very distinctive and I could do a custom version, despite the lack of gradients or long trains on the line!
 
And with yet more changes, you can use the bones of the chassis for the post war 99.77-99 series.

Just for reference, the german wikipedia pages (usually more informative than the english ones) for the three classes are :
Saxon VIK 0-10-0T
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sächsische_VI_K
DRG 99.73-76 2-10-2T (1930)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_99.73–76 < Link To http://de.wikipedia.org/w...reihe_99.73%E2%80%9376
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_99.73-76 < Link To http://en.wikipedia.org/w...G_Class_99.73-76 (english)
DR 99.77-79 2-10-2T (1952)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_99.77–79 < Link To http://de.wikipedia.org/w...reihe_99.77%E2%80%9379
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR_Class_99.77-79 < Link To http://en.wikipedia.org/w..DR_Class_99.77-79 (english)

Have to admit, I didn't think the chassis under the VIK was quite the same, wikipedia - which is very far from always correct - quotes a coupled wheelbase of 3.72m, and I know the two 2-10-2T classes are 4m. No worries anyway.

Trouble is, these are big locos - if you modelled them in 1:16.7 or so as to make the gauge right for 45mm vs 750mm full size, I suspect they'd be bigger than the existing LGB 2-10-2T. Even goofy gauging them and working in 1:22.5 (as though they were metre gauge), you've got 800mm wheels spaced out evenly on a 4m wheelbase. That's 36mm drivers (easy) at 45+45+45+45mm spacing = 180mm total wheelbase (hard). To get that round R1 or anything like it, you're going to need something very like the existing LGB bendy 2-10-2T, with all the associated costs. And LGB have taken a LOT of flack over the years over their existing bendy, not quite a scale model of either pre or post war, 2-10-2T rail grinder. I wouldn't want to be the sales director asking for a similar looking, equally complex loco that was also the wrong gauge.

One of the limited run brass producers might do one (might already have for all I know) with rigid chassis, suitable for 4ft (LGB R3) and up, but that's only only way I can see of avoiding some very complicated engineering. And by excluding R1's, you've probably also excluded 80% of the possible market, which pushed you towards superdetailed brass and assoxiated costs.

Sorry, but I don't think you'll see this loco in plastoc any time soon, unless it's a renumbered/liveried/accessoried version of the existing Harz loco.

Nice to dream though. Another one I'd like to see is the Molli 900mm gauge 2-8-2T (of which they recently build a 4th brand new one), which would be a bit easier, but still struggle on curves below 4ft or so. If only DRG had produced a 2-6-4T or 4-6-4T something like a narrow gauge version of BR78, that might have got round R1 with just the odd flangeless driver...

Jonathan
RDE
 
Jonathan - I'd definitely not expect it to be 'true scale' and to fit in with the Meyer IVK and the new IK - so about 1:22ish - and why not use an articulated chassis like the existing Harz 2-10-2?
 
The Meyer has been a success despite the wider gauge so that shouldn't be a problem. I'm afraid as LGB are welded to getting everything round R1 then articulation is inevitable. I guess the sticking point would be the cost will then be similar to the Harz loco but it's a less iconic machine / railway. The Meyer has always been the 'Saxon' icon. Not that I wouldn't be very tempted ;)
 
VI K in brass

357b574f338241d6a6f28edb3b78e4cc.jpg
 
It would be a good loco to model. probably using the rubber ruler on gauge. The flexible chassis is now established and used by Piko and (I believe) USA trains so cant be that awkward. The VI and VII are quite different, the 2-10-2 not really being a decendant of the 0-10-0 (other than being a ten wheeler), more of a brother (sister?) to the Harz locos. The boiler being much shorter giving the 0-10-0 a much chunkier appearance which personally I like.
Not sure who made the brass model above - might possibly be scratch built.
Either would be on my wish list.
 
Well, it's 3000 EUROS, so right now that's only about 2400 of our Finest English Pounds.... sounds a lot better if you say it quickly! ;)

I actually thought that your photo was of one that you owned, Alan - didn't realise it was just a snap you took elsewhere!

Jon.
 
I think I'll save up for the IK when it's released later this year Paul, yes.
I wonder, what's the best way of suggesting potential models to LGB in these Marklin days?
 
Zerogee said:
Well, it's 3000 EUROS, so right now that's only about 2400 of our Finest English Pounds.... sounds a lot better if you say it quickly! ;)

I actually thought that your photo was of one that you owned, Alan - didn't realise it was just a snap you took elsewhere!

Jon.
Click to expand...

I wish!:rolf:
 
Accucraft have done one of the 0-10-0's and Regner a live steam 2-10-2 but its got the lower side tanks than the ones common on the Saxon lines today. The tanks don't reach up as high as the cab windows which they do on the rest.
Bertsdorf on the Zittau to Oybin or Jonsdorf line would make a fantastic junction station for a layout or garden.
 
jameshilton said:
Jonathan - I'd definitely not expect it to be 'true scale' and to fit in with the Meyer IVK and the new IK - so about 1:22ish - and why not use an articulated chassis like the existing Harz 2-10-2?
Click to expand...
James,

No reason why it can't be done technically, making the same kind of 2-6-4-2 with smaller wheels and closer spacing, but the result is going to cost pretty much the same to tool up for as the Harz loco, and while there'll doubtless be extra sales, will there be double?

My real point is that a 1:22.5 (ish) scale 99.73-76 would be only about 10% smaller all round than the existing (somewhat underscale) LGB Harz 2-10-2T. The postwar 99.77-79 is even longer, mostly in the bunker if I recall correctly. To the cognoscenti the differences will be obvious (as will the compromises to get it round R1), and the 750mm gauge machines are less massive in appearance, but most people are going to struggle to tell the two types apart when they aren't parked next to each other. The 99.73 and cousins are bound to be a bit gentler on the track and need slightly easier for clearances than the Harz version, but doesn't that just mean they'll canibalise sales?

They could maybe make it more different (and cheaper) by squishing it up lengthwise so that is was say 20% shorter than their harz loco, say halfway between those and the Rugens or 2-6-2T's, but if you're going to go that far, why not just make a more prototypical model of something real that's a bit smaller and different in appearance? The Molli 2-8-2T, a different 0-4-4-0T mallet to the one trainline are doing, there's a host of possibles. I'm sure that's the logic behind the Saxon 0-6-0T - even though Accucraft have done one in metal in the past, it looks nothing like anything else in the LGB catalogue.

To answer stockers' question, Piko also do a bendy rod driven chassis on the V60/260 diesel, but that's it. USAtrains articulate the motor blocks on the three axle diseasals, but there are no rods, and it's all hidden behind cosmetic sideframes - nothing useful for a steamer there, unless you're building a tram. Apart from the LGB Harz 2-10-2T and the Piko V60, the only other bendy rod drive chassis I can immedaitely think of is the LGB 'standard gauge' Mikado, which is effectively a 2-4-4-2, and has turned up in various guises as a 141R, USRA loco etc. Don't know the exact dimensions of that block, but I'd be interested to see how it matched up to the Molli 2-8-2T's. If it was close, then they could offer those for 'just' the cost of of the body tooling.

Thinking aloud, LGB do manage to get the 8-coupled rugens round R1, without anything more than copious sideplay I think. Don't know how it scales out but it might be possible to extend it into an R1-friendly 10-coupled by adding an extra axle at the back, with huge side-play accomodated by suitably thin but rigid rods. Or if that was too much of a leap, you could have extended rods that didn't actually connect to the extra wheels, just ran round in front of them, and a plain wheelset the right size that formed a bogie with what appeared to be the the trailing pony truck. I've always wanted to see if that was enough to persuade the eye it was all moving together, it's amazing what tricks your own vision can play. Of course, it's be easier to hide that kind of subterfuge at the front end behind the valve gear, but that would mean moving that and the cyclinders along one axle on the block compared to their positioning on the Rugens, and might stop the use of common parts. And production and parts commonality is always an advantage for new models.

Food for thought?

Jonathan
RDE
 
Actually, is the wheel turning full circle here? Seem to remember one James Hilton rebuilding a Rugens, having been inspired by a Saxon 0-10-0T, though last I saw the Rugens hadn't been outfitted with its side tanks yet. And now we're talking about Saxon 10-coupled locos, and the closest existing chassis donor might just be an LGB Rugens....

Jonathan
RDE
 
Yes Jon - guilty as charged - the Rugens has stayed a well tank, although I have modified the cab roof... The position of the cylinders made any tanks visually unbalanced - and actually, I'm quite fond of it now, it reminds me of the Bosnian Class 83s if I squint whilst it's running... I've Keith Chester's book, which is absolutely cracking.

I hadn't realised that LGB had 'shrunk' the Harz mallet so much... and yes the IK is visually very different from the rest of the range, plus with the recent (well recent-ish) reconstruction of No.54 is seen about on most of the 750mm Saxon preserved lines I believe...

Doesn't stop the VIIK being a good prospective model though, but plenty of issues with it being made by LGB I grant :)
 
Sorry, should've been clearer, it's the LGB harz 2-10-2T I'm referring to as being generally under scale, hence it would be similar in size to a true scale 750mm 2-10-2T.

Jonathan
RDE
 
All the Sach models are about 1:20.3 The bogie coaches are out off scale compared to the rest of the LGB range IMHO. The Austrain and DB bogie coaches do match the V51 and the LGB 2085 Mallet
 
Resin D Etre Ltd said:
Sorry, should've been clearer, it's the LGB harz 2-10-2T I'm referring to as being generally under scale, hence it would be similar in size to a true scale 750mm 2-10-2T.
Click to expand...
Meant to dig out this quote about the articles on Harz 99-7222 from GBProfi earlier:-
Doing the splits was unavoidable: the newer engines measure 12555mm over buffers, the Old Timer only 11636mm. In 1:22.5 this would mean 555.56mm and 517.16mm. The LGB model of the 7222 was built to 550mm - almost as long as one of the newer engines.
So it's only 5mm under length on the new build locos.
 
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