SVR air powered points

[maxi-model]

As a result of musings on another thread (thank you Martino) I have come to the conclusion that air power is the way to go and with the Suset Valley Railroad (SVR) system . The LGB electric motors and Train Engineer momentary actuators were ripped out 3 years ago and I went all manual on my mix of LGB R5's and GRS 6', with a Piko (R5/R3 lgb equiv') curved point interloper. 12 switches in total, all code 332.
The proposed air powered set-up will have 2 sets of 2 switches and one of 4 switches operating grouped to "set a road". The remaining 4 operating independently.

Principal benefits I see are -
1) Ease of set-up and maintainace. Just pipe it up right, bury it and off you go.
2) More positive operation and less maintainace with the air powered motors than electric. Better with a ground laid floating track. Yes, you still got to clear the debris but less problem with the minor stuff.
3) No more having to remember to "set the road" right on groups of points thus avoiding annoying de-railments. You can build that into the set-up and just need a single throw of the air switch (toggle) to get everything going the right way. I never mastered that with the LGB set-up.

However there are some grey areas with the SVR system, of which I am awaiting answers, and I wondered if any of you had experience with and could enlighten me in the meantime.
1) Just how compatible with track systems outside on SVR's own are the point motors. Will there be a lot of hacking about of sleepers (spacing and otherwise) and fiddling with the throw of the mechanisms. I have looked at a site that seems to intimate this. Take a look here http://elmassian.com/trains/track-aamp-switches/air-operated-switches . The motors must not poke above the railhead, low slung and wide cow catcher/plow alert.
2) I really don't understand the bits about compressors and fitting szes, all a bit nebulous. I have a US made SIMair silent compressor that outputs 2.5 CFM. But it is not an automatic switch on to top up pressure nor does it have a tank. I have a spare sound Toyota MR2 wheel/tyre but I have no idea how to connect it to SVR's own adaptors (male to male, now don't go there you naughty boys and girls). Retailer just says "oh, users just jury rig something up". Sorry if I'm spending upwards of £450 on this system I expect a better answer than that. Oh, I do have a big noisy compressor with a tank but I would not wish to inflict that on the neighbours.

Anybody got any experience of of this system and some reassuring to the above. Or would you care to disuade me form my delusional idealism ?
Max.

 

[bobg]

Max, I'm as curious as you on this one. The system I saw didn't need a compressor, it used something that looked a bit like a syringe and push/pull operation. If a system did need a small compressor I'd have thought something along the lines (pun) of an airbrush type would be more than adequate and they can be fairly quiet. We're not looking for masses of power to operate points, so a few P.S.I. should be plenty.

 

[a98087]

From my brief research off the air system, you dont need much air to run the system,

A car tye will provide lots of air storage when you consider the volume of the space inside.

Also as each point activation will only use a very small amount of air you will be able to go a long time without re inflation.

To inflate the car tyre all you need is a simple handpump or a normal car tyre compressor, which are both cheap and easily obtainable.

And I I were building a compressed air system I would try and include a pressure gauge, especially as it makes fault finding a lot easier

Dan

 

[dunnyrail]

Max,
Re your Air Queries.

My suggestion is to use a smallish around £120 compressor with an Air Tank and a Pressure Gauge. Mine also has the facility to adjust the Pressure output. As for the noise, Andy Rush had to recently buy a new compressor which is located in his Garage where the main Station and Fiddle Yard are. We found with this one and the old one that conversation was impossible when the thing kicked in. So I made a sound box for it which is basically an MDF Box lined with expanded polystyrene, the compressor also sits on some more expanded polystyrene. Now the sound is just a background hum and conversation in the Garage is possible. Also if your system is Air Tight you will find that the Compressor does not kick in that often. When I got my system (Del Air) it came with a screw adaptor that worked with an adaptor for my system, any good Compressor supplier should be able to help ( not a DIY Shed!).

Finally, you are not a million miles away from St Neots, should you wish to see Air in Operation just PM me and we can fix you up an evening or day time visit to see it in Operation at the Ruschbahn which is all Air Operated. I cant offer my line as it is still being worked on so no Air running at present. But I have used Air extensively on my last layout for over 10 years now and would never go back.

JonD

 

[Cliff George]

Hi Max,

Well I've not used any of the parts from the SVR system yet, although I'm thinking of getting some of the actuators to try.

The system I use is largely based on the previous EZ-Air system.

1) Just how compatible with track systems outside on SVR's own are the point motors. Will there be a lot of hacking about of sleepers (spacing and otherwise) and fiddling with the throw of the mechanisms. I have looked at a site that seems to intimate this. Take a look here http://elmassian.com/trains/track-aamp-switches/air-operated-switches. < Link To http://elmassian.com/trai...air-operated-switches. The motors must not poke above the railhead, low slung and wide cow catcher/plow alert.

I don't know, since I've only used the EZ-Air part, but they look to me like direct replacements for the switch motors on LGB points. This is something that retailers could be relied on to know since they sell both the actuator and the points. The EZ-Air parts were direct fits on LGB points.

2) I really don't understand the bits about compressors and fitting szes, all a bit nebulous. I have a US made SIMair silent compressor that outputs 2.5 CFM. But it is not an automatic switch on to top up pressure nor does it have a tank. I have a spare sound Toyota MR2 wheel/tyre but I have no idea how to connect it to SVR's own adaptors (male to male, now don't go there you naughty boys and girls). Retailer just says "oh, users just jury rig something up". Sorry if I'm spending upwards of £450 on this system I expect a better answer than that. Oh, I do have a big noisy compressor with a tank but I would not wish to inflict that on the neighbours.

This I do know about. Unfortunately there are different standards for compressed air connectors in different parts of the world. I found this: http://www.ralstoninst.com/news/story/the-difference-between-npt-bspp-and-bspt-seals < Link To http://www.ralstoninst.co...pt-bspp-and-bspt-seals

It is quite easy to understand with a bit of googling.

Mostly NTP in the US, but BSPT here. Like Ez-Air, being US based, the SVRR systems uses the US standards. This is a pain for us when we want to connect the system to a UK purchased source of compressed air.

You can get converter connectors I have some spare male 1/8BSPT to 1/8NPTP male connectors if these are any use to you. I got them when I built my system to connect a UK purchased compressor to the EZ-Air system, but had to buy a pack of 10! I also have some female 1/4BSPP to 1/8BSPP male which can help with connecting to compressors purchased here. It doesn't look like this is quite what will work with the SVRR adapter set, because the sex is wrong, but it may help it you can get a few other parts. Look at places such as Norgren and Clippard.

I use a small 8litre compressor, that repressurises itself when needed. The system uses so little air that it doesn't repressurise itself very often (and with my computer controlled system the points are operating frequently), but when they do it is noticeable. It is possible to get quiet compressors.

Some people consider it a negative that you cannot push through a closed point like you can with electric power points.

I like my system, just turn it on a go. As you say like all system you do need to make sure the points are free of debris. Mine has been outside now for six or seven years and no failures so far.

Anything more I can help with do let me know.

 

[Cliff George]

... so a few P.S.I. should be plenty.

The SVRR system says it needs 30psi. DelAir and EZ-Air both quoted 40 psi.

 

[Cliff George]

The SVRR compressor connector fitting is 1/8NTP male. You could use something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-8-NPT-t...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1ccab7a1

to convert the male to a female 1/8NTP connector, and then one of my 1/8 NTP male to 1/8BSPT male fittings to convert to a UK standard fitting size.

This is just an example there are probably more elegant ways of converting to whatever size you need.

Another thought is that Brandbright used to supply both the DelAir and EZ-Air systems had knowledge about how to convert US based air hose standards to UK standards. Maybe they can help you, or might even have old stock remaining.

 

[maxi-model]

Thanks Cliff for the advise and links. I might have to take you up on the converter offer. The motor's lugs in the pictures look too widely spaced and too large a lug for a simple "plug and play" fit to LGB and no dimensions are listed. I'm also thinking US/NG tie spacing v LGBEuro/NG sleeper spacing variations in track systems. I'm surprised the UK retailer did not have that info to hand without referencing the US maker first. I suppose he is going through a learning curve on this one, so better be patient.

JonD, I'd like to avoid getting into the palaver of building a sound baffle box for my big compressor with its air tank. Although it is the ideal source. It also might not fit my nice new 6ft x 30ins lean-to shed when suitably clad. The next best place for it is under the stairs. I suppose as it only has to maintain 30 psi and I can dial in an initial amount of upto 110 psi to the tank it may not have to top up too often even in a year of running. By the way I have another dial-up pressure valve I can put at the other end to limit the output to 30 psi to the point motors ! It's an option.

Dan. Preferred power would be from a car tyre. Neat handy and fit a spce in the lean-to near the track. I just need a tidy ready made converter from a male Schreader valve (female) to the male SVR connector (female). I have an Halfords power pack with built in tyre pump to do the occaisional top ups.

Thanks all for your inputs so far, Max.

 

[bobg]

... so a few P.S.I. should be plenty.

The SVRR system says it needs 30psi. DelAir and EZ-Air both quoted 40 psi.

Sounds fair to me, an air-brush compressor will generally supply that.

Please do all be aware that it can take only as little as 20 p.s.i. to penetrate skin, so caution is required; we don't want any embolisms.

 

[maxi-model]

Having been very positive about going ahead with the SVRR air powered system I now feel somewhat negative, at least sourcing in the UK.

Apparently you need 1 acctuator per point motor, max 2 possibly but no guarentees. Result, you cannot set a road, say with 4 motors. So that blows out one big benefit to me in avoiding "senior" moments and the resultant derailments. I could rearrange my set-up so I could go with 4 individual sets of 2 linked switches rather than 2 of 2 and 1 of 4. But that means I'm stuck with mono directional operation.

Also noted that the motor in SVRR photos lies on extended ties that are not part of the LGB/Peco/GRS switch designs. Can't get any info yet on the alignment of the mount on the motor in relation to the previously mentioned makes own motor/lever mounts and whether they need the support of those extended ties long term to avoid misalignments or breakage of the motors.

Surprised that the UK distributor has not got this sorted prior to listing as the above mentioned makes are the ones these motors are most likely to be fitted to this side of the pond .

To be honest not really too keen on the retailer's rather clipped responces and attitude despite my saying if we can clear up my concerns I'd like to go ahead with a purchace. Guess I'll have to try and go with the US based maker direct and see if that is a bit more welcoming and positive.

Max.

 

[maxi-model]

For some reason I cannot edit my message above.
Had a word with Pete at SVRR direct in the USA.
Correction - You can run multiple motors off a single toggle as the pressure throughout the system is a constant irrespective of how it is set up. Now I have to work on the spacing on the motor mounting holes - 1". That and making an adaptor plate as the motor has to stand off 1/2" from the rail due to its throw. Provided this does not get too complicated I think I might go ahead on this one. price might just work out better too, even allowing for 20% UK vat, shipping and parcelfarce handling fee.
Max.

 

[dunnyrail]

Mono operation - Not quite sure what you mean by this, if it is for a train to be able to select its own route by passing through a point and that route is set for the next train to use that point for the same route in the opposite direction? Well yes air will not do that. However if you just mean that ability to spring out of a point and for that point to reset to its route, then yes that can be done. How you would do it is is to have the point set up as a sprung point with say the straight route normally (Normal) set and sprung in (Reversed) via the curve route. Then your actuator would need a bell crank that is not normally touching the point bar. When the actuator is pulled of (actuated by air) it would push the bell crank that would then push the tie bar so that the point would reverse. Sorry to use Normal and Reverse, but to a Railwayman it is the only way that I can properly think of and describe point routing.

Multiple actuators per point - Not quite sure why you would need this unless you are thinking of electrical equivalent of a Diode Matrix for Route setting. If so I do not believe that this is possible unless you adopted multiple bell cranks per point as described above to set up routes, but this would be very expensive with actuators but only need one switch per route. Also the banks of actuators used per point would get very ugly. Suggestion why not set up your lines Air System as a real railway would be with logical setup of Normal and Reverse for each point based on most used Traffic Pattern. Then build a Panel for the Switches as in say a Real Signal Box. That is what we have done on the Ruschbahn and it works very well. The feeling of being a Signalman at the main Panel is an unbeatable experience.

Remember, that offer to visit is still open, many of your worries will disappear with seeing the Air in a live working setting.

JonD