Zillertal - something not quite right ???

[Rob s]

I picked this up some time back as a bit of a re-build project.
It was mainly all there, except for a few cosmetic bits.
There was very little wear on pickups or wheels and it ran very
nice with a real smooth action, but no lights working.

Finally decided it was time to fix the lights, took it apart, cleaned
up all the contacts on the copper strips and put back together, one blown
bulb replaced and all was working fine.

Thats when i think i [strike]dropped a cob***[/strike] made a stupid mistake, ran it on the
track for about 6-8 feet it shot of a bit quick, then it came to a very solid
and abrupt DEAD STOP.

One of the side black plastic uprights had not been set in the correct slot on
the underside of the chasis and caught on some track side scenery.
(its still bent a bit out of vertical looking at the pic's)

I re-set the upright and all seemed ok, problem is it now seems to have a very
slight waggle on its back end.
One suggestion i have received is that the quartering may have been knoked
out of skew.

Are they poss right and if so how do i go about re-setting it ???
any usefull sugestions (pic's) welcomed please.
side on shots as it is now.

Oh and please, on the off chance any body has any of the cosmetic bits of the top going spare, let me know - especially
- horn of top of cab roof
- the pipe that runs vertically in front centre of the cab
- any of the box's of top of the side tanks

 

[whatlep]

Hi Rob

Judging by the difference in the position of the balance weights on your 1st & 3rd driving wheels, one or both has jumped a cog or two. Not sure what gearbox you have there, but if it's the more recent type, you should be able to simply lift off the bottom gearbox cover and reset the wheels (carefully!). Check that the balance weights are in the same position before resecuring the cover. If it's an old split gearbox, you need more experienced hands than mine.

You're out of luck on the spare bits you need at the official "old LGB" spares stockist http://www.modell-land.de < Link To www.modell-land.de, but you might get lucky on German eBay http://www.ebay.de < Link To www.ebay.de.

 

[Spule 4]

Agreed with Welthelp, it appears that it has shifted on the gear. Now the question is, did one of the idlers jump?

The loco is a split block, which means dropping the chassis out of the body.

Below in the link is an internal shot of one of mine, as the bearings on these do wear out due to the different gearbox design and are replaced easily with plastic ones from Igus of Germany.

Look at the black gear, you can see where the idler sits above the axle itself about 10-11 O'clock. THe white gear axle is just in for comparison, that is the idler on the loco, only the two outer ones are geared.

http://upgrade.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/8/aft/85616/afv/topic/Default

Take the body off of the loco, then remove the weight, wheels, valve gear, any other bits in the way and then the top cover, and then split the box. Watch the BBs at the end of the motor, do NOT loose them. If the axles or idlers are worn, you can get replacements, they were a standard catalog item.

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200806278

Good luck!

 

[Tim Brien]

Typical problem on these locomotives. Look to the valve rodding on left side (from rear) just aft of cylinder. The lower expansion link should be horizontal and pointing forward and the upper link should be more or less vertical and ahead of the crosshead pin mounting. In the situation as yours is then this will cause erratic waddling type motion.

 

[Spule 4]

Tim-

I have had my 2080 do the same thing and I caught that in his pictures (I assumed that was what he was talking about with "uprights"), but have never seen one do the dead stop tho with this issue. One problem I have found with the Us, especially the later ones, is the valve gear will hit objects and break...

What amazes me is how many of these 207X/2080 locos you see on eBay et al with the valve gear inverted incorrectly.

 

[Zerogee]

The wheel/gear alignment is definitely out - you can clearly see in the pics that the front axle is not lined up with the second and third axles.
Now, the GOOD thing about the early U class locos is that unlike most of the other early split-gearbox LGB types, this is one that you don't have to completely dismantle to fix the problem! If you take the body off, there should be a black ventilated cover plate over the motor, held on with 4 small screws. Removing this allows you to carefully lift out the motor from the top, as others have mentioned above be VERY careful not to lose the thrust ballbearings at each end of the motor shaft! Once the motor is out you can turn the axles a few degrees by hand, lining up all the wheels on each side by eye, then drop the motor back in.

Much, much easier than the same job on, say, an old Stainz!

Jon.

 

[KeithT]

Is it my imagination or is it just the driver on the left side which is out of quarter? I haven't dismantled this section of a U Class but if this is the problem could it be remedied by simply loosening the axle screw and realigning that wheel?
I find that the drop link on these locos wear (I have 5 of them)and the slightest knock will push it out of alignment. Because of the wear it is usually easy to just push them back - but carefully!

 

[Zerogee]

No Keith, from the look of it (the second and third photos) both sides are out of position, so I reckon it's a one or two teeth out on the gearing.

Jon.

 

[KeithT]

No Keith, from the look of it (the second and third photos) both sides are out of position, so I reckon it's a one or two teeth out on the gearing.

Jon.

OK, at least the remedy seems reasonably straightforward.
I have made a note of the method for future reference thanks. Also, one of my U class locos is v geriatric but despite having only one pick-up brush left which means it must be picking up current from the trailing bogie alone it runs smooth as silk.
I have the brushes ready to fit but just haven't got around to dealing with it.

 

[duncan1_9_8_4]

just take the chasis cover plate off, revealing the axle cogs and worm gears, then lift the apropriate axle and its cog out a milimeter and reset it onto the drive gog, one notch along. had to do this with my dads spreewald loco yesterday, and it runs smooth now.

 

[Zerogee]

just take the chasis cover plate off, revealing the axle cogs and worm gears, then lift the apropriate axle and its cog out a milimeter and reset it onto the drive gog, one notch along. had to do this with my dads spreewald loco yesterday, and it runs smooth now.

That works fine for later models with sandwich gearboxes - but Rob's U class is an early model (as shown by the lack of skates, and the metal valvegear) where the only access to the motor and axle gears is via the top cover as shown in the photo I posted, unless you completely dismantle the entire chassis (which you really don't want to do unless you have to!).

Just another thought, Rob - if you ever plan to go Digital in the future, then while the motor is out you could always solder some new wires (green and yellow, to keep to LGB's colour code) to its terminals and then carefully snip away the parts of the brass contact strips that touch the motor terminals. To continue to use the loco on analogue for the time being, simply connect these new motor wires to any part of the two brass busbars that run along the chassis top (where the blue and red wires from the trailing truck are connected in my photo) - but when you are ready to chip the loco, all you'll need to do is connect these motor wires to the decoder along with two new track feed wires (brown and white) from the busbars, like this:

Of course you'll also have to re-wire the lights to the decoder, but that's a separate issue you can deal with at the time!

Jon.

 

[Spule 4]

The wheel/gear alignment is definitely out - you can clearly see in the pics that the front axle is not lined up with the second and third axles.
Now, the GOOD thing about the early U class locos is that unlike most of the other early split-gearbox LGB types, this is one that you don't have to completely dismantle to fix the problem! If you take the body off, there should be a black ventilated cover plate over the motor, held on with 4 small screws. Removing this allows you to carefully lift out the motor from the top, as others have mentioned above be VERY careful not to lose the thrust ballbearings at each end of the motor shaft! Once the motor is out you can turn the axles a few degrees by hand, lining up all the wheels on each side by eye, then drop the motor back in.

Much, much easier than the same job on, say, an old Stainz!

Jon.

Very true, the motor can come out, but any gear repair (assuming needed due to skip) will still require the box to be split. Easier to get a motor out....yes

Now, I have had one motor decide to shed its armature, looked like a mouse nest inside, and it did the same thing, ran great and then dead stop.

 

[Zerogee]

The wheel/gear alignment is definitely out - you can clearly see in the pics that the front axle is not lined up with the second and third axles.
Now, the GOOD thing about the early U class locos is that unlike most of the other early split-gearbox LGB types, this is one that you don't have to completely dismantle to fix the problem!.......

........Much, much easier than the same job on, say, an old Stainz!

Jon.

Very true, the motor can come out, but any gear repair (assuming needed due to skip) will still require the box to be split. Easier to get a motor out....yes

Now, I have had one motor decide to shed its armature, looked like a mouse nest inside, and it did the same thing, ran great and then dead stop.

Yes, agreed, anything more than a simple gear realignment or straight motor replacement is a b*gger on these, and means taking everything to bits; if you have to do this, I found a lot of handy stuff and useful pics in John Lythgoe's book "Your G Scale Locomotive".

Jon.

 

[Zerogee]

Firstly the quarterings out as the con rod that connects the three drivers should be level and its sloping up towards the rear of the loco.
Secondly it looks like metal valvegear rather than the later nylon/plastic type which dates the loco somewhat it'll probably be an old fashioned 3 wire gearbox which will make re quartering more involved than on the later types

Not even a "3 wire" job - older even than that, it's a "no-wire" one (direct brass busbar connection from pickups to motor)! But as noted in my posts above, re-quartering isn't that difficult on one of these due to the relative ease with which you can get at and remove the motor.

Jon.

 

[themole]

Take the body off and go in from the top, then remove cover and motor(plus the ball bearings) as said one of the easier locos to get to grips with and fix the quatering.Model dates from 1988-90 era. Alyn

 

[Rob s]

FIRST 'WOW' A GREAT BIG THANK YOU TO YOU ALL

Got home to late to do any usefull work in garden (HONEST BOSS),
so had to take a quick sneaky peek on here,
{cor put kettle on and settle in to read and read again}

Only to be amazed yet again at the amount of useful/informed knowledge
this most venerable place has to offer from such generous folk.
It really does make up for the [strike]S****Y[/strike] normal day i generally have dealing
with 'joe public' and 'contractors' alike

Any how - I just couldn't resist bringing the Zil down from the garden and
taking a screw driver to it.

Simple things (to me anyway) first,
bearing in mind i am a real begginer at this

Tim - LHS valve rodding (took a while) but worked out what you meant
and what bits were which, and how to correct it.
Thanks this corrected the waggle

But then it is obvious there is a slight up one side, down on opp side,
sort of a woggle motion so tried next idea

Jon - gently tilted one end of motor (rear) and re-aligned the balance
weights on the rear axle, could not see or tell if any bearings were there,
think they are embeded in grease.
Took a few goes one tooth at a time but got it close.
Thanks this corrected the slight woggle

But then it is poss to see that the loco actually has a slight hesitation
in movement, sort of a gerky motion at slow speed
so looked at the next idea

Keith T - Yes the link bars appear to be quite loose front to back,
having never seen a new model, don't know how badly worn they are
but didnotice there is enough play across all 3 wheels to actually show
the balance weights out of true with each other, and that they were only
in line if at opp ends of the play,
went back to Jon's method, re-lifted the motor, but set the wheels so
they were lined up at the same end of the play in the unions in the link bars.

This also leveled up the link bars as Cheeky monkey pointed out
Thanks guys this corrected the slight gerky motion

Now having spent so much time [strike]playing[/strike] fettling and being so close to
what i though was the smooth running when i first ran it,
you can tell (on the test rollers only) there is a slight front to back up down
motion, sort of a nodding donkey motion
so looked at the next idea

Garrett - yes there is some play in the rear axle hope it's the bushes,
because it's a shame the axle gear pack you linked is now marked
as discontinued and out of stock :bleh:
but am going to try the over size poly-bush idea and see if that makes a dif,
worked on our offroad landy's we used to [strike]trash[/strike] drive around the country side


But honest on track it is almost un-noticable except at very slow speed,
so am in no rush to totally dismantle it yet.

Thanks again folks

Just to see how far you folks read this

Garrett - the verticle i tried to refer to, is the black plastic upright that
also crosses under the chasis and holds the very ends of the valve gear in place,
i had not slotted it home properly and hanging low and slightly out it caught
the top of a (i think) aristo point switch and this started the whole thing off.

Jon - in your pic there are two black plastic squares visible,
mine has the slots but nothing there, what are they and do you have a side on
pic showing them ??
As for digital in my dreams may be :brokeheart: and as you said
this has Brass buzz bars, no wires in sight

Alyn - spot on 1989 found the date on a bit of paper that came with it

It will never look like this, pic below but its a real work horse and
to me for the price of a good bottle of wine and
a few hours of peace and quiet, its a real cracker

 

[Tim Brien]

Rob,
now go back and check the right hand side valve rodding. If you operate like this you will break off the input rod to the slide valve chest (above the drive piston cylinder) and you will then find no spares are available to replace. On these early locomotive the rodding likes to go overcentre and should not be operated like this.

 

[Rob s]

Rob,
now go back and check the right hand side valve rodding. If you operate like this you will break off the input rod to the slide valve chest (above the drive piston cylinder) and you will then find no spares are available to replace. On these early locomotive the rodding likes to go overcentre and should not be operated like this.

Well spotted and thanks very much Tim
i hadn't noticed it until after i posted the pic's
was trying to tighten up the front cylinders as one is loose
and lets every thing on RHS move a bit.
Have put a post-it on it, as a reminder to put it right before
re-assembled and test.

 

[Spule 4]

Your model pre-dates 1988, that is when they went to the updated drive with skates.

As for the bearings, the axles should be fine unless the gears are worn, it will be the block itself. So if your gears are good, then you need not get the gear set.

 

[Zerogee]

Hi Rob - yes, I read ALL of your post....
OK, the two black squares (where you just have empty slots) are the fixings for a couple of pieces of dummy plastic detail, extra bits of the valve gear or suspension (no idea what they are supposed to do in real life, but they are just static detail on the model) - hopefully you can just about see it on my green Eurovapor U here, it's not very clear but it is the horizontal black piece above the middle driving wheel:

You mentioned that your U was missing several detail parts, I suspect that these are just two more on that list - they may have got lost when a previous owner removed the body for some reason. They serve no function other than cosmetic, so if you don't notice the lack of them then the loco is fine without them. Or, thinking about it, of course this MAY be one of those parts that wasn't actually fitted to all of the different U class variants that LGB made - yours may never have had them in the first place.

Happy to help!

Jon.