2.4GHz Navigator/Receiver Wireless Problem

Issues summary

- Pairing the navigator: menu options aren’t available after pairing
- Paired navigators won’t be recognized the following day
- Only 4 Navigators can be paired to a receiver (8 at 433 MHz)
- Navigator 400h+2,4GHz transmitter and Navigator 2,4 GHz influence each other
- New 2,4 GHz Navigators: display is vague and slow in operation
- Lots of not described failure issues
- Batteries last much shorter then on the 400 MHz version
- After R/C is out of range, locomotives or multiple locomotives won’t react
- Spontaneous R/C connection break downs
- Much lower range of 25 meters with the receiver indoors and the layout outdoors
- Range is lower then the EU 400 MHz, with built in antenna
- Range is much lower then the 400 MHz with external antenna
 
This may not help but here goes...LGB MTS used to have range issues and all one had to do was place a metal pie plate under the receiver and it improved the reception. My guess is this created a better ground plane for the RF signal.
 
Hi Dan,

That worked also with the Massoth 400/900 MHz receiver with the external antenna.
An aluminium plate of 20 x 20 cm would do the trick.
It was even mentioned in the manual.

And overhere in Europe we had the Navigator 400 MHz EU Plus transmitter, with an external antenna cord.
All good for a range of 100 - 200 meters.

The 2,4 Bluetooth Low Energy protocol is a whole different story.
With much less range, in my setup not more then 20 meters.
No chance of enhancing the internal micro BT antenna.
Obstacles, walls and persons in between are also not good for the range.

Regards,
Wilco
 
Last edited:
Dan said:
This may not help but here goes...LGB MTS used to have range issues and all one had to do was place a metal pie plate under the receiver and it improved the reception. My guess is this created a better ground plane for the RF signal.
Click to expand...
Wish we had known that in the early days of the Ruschbahn back in 2004-5. We gagged around with extended aerials on the handset that worked well enough. 1 station was round the corner from a wall and had tricky reception for reliable running. Resolved when a new Massoth system was purchased around 2008-9.
 
Hi Jon,

All was well in 2005 when I bought my Massoth 1200 z with the R/C 433 MHz Navigator.

And now we are all back again to the LGB MTS times with the new Massoth 2,4 GHz BLE R/C system.

Issues:
- Range
- Battery life
- Connection

So stay as long as you can with the 433/900 MHZ system.

Best regards,
Wilco
 
Last edited:
Greg Elmassian said:
I'm sorry to ask a stupid question:

the 2.4 GHz navigator is Bluetooth? Not Zigbee or some other long range system?

Unreal...

Greg
Click to expand...
It does appear to be bluetooth. I found this document from 2018 from Massoth and those are the transmitters I've got in my 2.4ghz NAVs. The claimed range is 400m. I dont think thats accurate, but I have not had an issue with range on mine. It was always the connection itself and pairing issues.

www.massoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Massoth_BLE_Funksystem.pdf
 
Hey guys,

It isn't the standard blue tooth protocol, but the BLE blue tooth low energy protocol.
Which was designed for short range of 10 meters, low energy consumption and long operation time.

The Massoth document combines that with a long range.
That's strange, because it wasn't designed for that.

According to the manual you can increase the R/C range up to 400 meters.
What isn't mentioned that in that case the energy consumption is enormous.
So that works only whit means powering, not on batteries.
And there must be a clear line of sight.
So no trees, bushes , buildings or persons in the way between.
And it is not a standard setting, it must be activated in the software.

And in the case of the application at Massoth the range is limited in my experience to 20 -25 meters and not the 50 meters stated in their manual.
With a strong increase of battery use.

What is important is that the 2,4 GHz signal does not penetrate walls and object as well as the 400 MHz/900MHz signal.
So when comparing the range it is important to know where the receiver is placed.
Mine was placed at the same spot in the house as before with the 400 MHz system.

Massoth also changed the BLE chipset along the way since the introduction in 2019.

First:
CYBLE 224110-00
2,4 GHz BLE Version 4.1

Second:
CYBLE 224116-01
2,4 GHz BLE Version 4.2

Also the Massoth software is different between these two versions.
As you can see in the update guidance, which makes a difference between the two chip sets.
So it might be that the behaviour is also different.

I got the latest second chipset.
With all the issues mentioned before.

The sudden breakdown of the R/C connection I didn't exprience.
But some colleagues in Germany and Switzerland did get that issues.
Not sure which chips set they had.

An example was a consist of 4 Harz bull steam locomotives going haywire after a R/C connection break down.
Nothing helped.


Diesel2000 Diesel2000
Thanks for the Massoth document.

There is no BLE 4.2 Long range protocol.
Only the extended range which comes with all the disadvantages.


Greg Elmassian Greg Elmassian
The 2,4 GHz BLE protocol is definitely not a long range system.
It was not designed for that purpose.
So yes, it is odd that Massoth did choose that protocol.

And it's certainly not a long range 2,4 GHz Zigbee protocol, which Zimo uses.

Overhere in Europe the 2,4 GHz BLE system wasn't well adapted by the Massoth users.
Certainly not by those who had the 400 MHz system running along with on a bigger layout.
They will stay away from it as long as possible.

It might work on a smaller layout within shorter range with a single navigator.

The main disadvantages:
- Much shorter range than 400 MHz
- Only 4 users at a receiver
- Strong increased battery usage
- R/C connection issues

Range issues:
- Metal objects
- Walls and buildings
- Water, especially human bodies

I learned a lot more about R/C systems than I would like to know in order to run my trains.

All my Massoth 2,4 GHz components are on the way to Massoth for the second time.
With an extensive list of issues to be solved.
Depending on the analysis by Massoth I will make the decision if I stay with the Massoth system or not.
That's a shame after all my years from 2005 with the Massoth system.


Regards,
Wilco
 
Last edited:
Hi,

Thanks.
So you got the first 2,4 GHz BLE chip.

Just to compare it to other experiences:
- Indoor or outdoor layout?
- Where is your receiver placed?
- Indoors; what type of wall material?
- What's the maximum range?
- One or more 2,4 GHz Navigators?
- Straight 2,4 GHz Navigators or 400h with 2,4 GHz Transmitter PCB
- Any issues?

Regards,
Wilco
 
Wilco said:
Hi,

Thanks.
So you got the first 2,4 GHz BLE chip.

Just to compare it to other experiences:
- Indoor or outdoor layout?
- Where is your receiver placed?
- Indoors; what type of wall material?
- What's the maximum range?
- One or more 2,4 GHz Navigators?
- Straight 2,4 GHz Navigators or 400h with 2,4 GHz Transmitter PCB
- Any issues?

Regards,
Wilco
Click to expand...
Outdoor layout
In a waterproof box on the outside of the house - works into basement just fine
Concrete and Brick
unknown maximum range
2x 2.4ghz NAVs
Only 2.4Ghz components
No issues at present after 2.1 firmware update last summer
 
Hey folks,

I returned all the Massoth 2,4 GHz BLE items back to my dealer.
There were just too many issues and poor performance.

In the meantime I did built back to the EU 433 MHz system.
From the beginning of May 2023 I’m using the 433 MHz system again.
And now in July I got all the in January sold items back again.

So I can relax and enjoy driving my model trains.

Best regards form the Netherlands,
Wilco
 
Hey all,

I thought all was well with the downgrade to the 433 MHz RX/TX system.
Not quite so.

I had some issues at the downgrading of the navigator firmware from 2,4 GHz (Version 2.20) to 433 MHz (version 2.00)
The downgrade itself went well and the two navigators worked fine with a cable.

When I replaced the 433 MHz transmitters it went wrong.
The two transmitters couldn’t connect to the navigator.
So I sent the two navigators back to Massoth to sort it out.

Afterwards, when I updated my thread on the German forum about it, there was mentioned that the 433 MHz transmitter could also work with the 2,4 GHz firmware.
Why is it that this info always comes afterwards?
It didn't come from Massoth anyway.
It would take a few second longer for the start up, because it couldn’t find the 2,4 GHz transmitter.
And switches to the 433 MHz transmitter.

I think I’m better off with the 433 MHz firmware.

Another benefit from all this is that Massoth now at least recognises their 2,4 GHz issue, according to a visitor to the Massoth stand at the LGB RhB event at Eschershausen in Germany.

They were thinking about some sort of repeater to extend the range.
If it was that simple, why didn’t they think of this before?
In my opinion because it is too simple.
There are more issues with the 2,4 GHz BLE system.

Best regards from the Netherlands,
Wilco


Gartenbahntreffen Eschershausen 2023

Shop area / Händler:

The great RhB layout / Anlage

The 360 camera run
 
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