Analogue, DCC, and some basic Newbie questions . . .

Handsomerob

Handsomerob

Catching the fever
O.k. it's me again,

Question #1
What is a good Analogue controller for an outside track? I have the Bachmann controller that came with Thomas but I imagine I will require a better one for a larger outside track.

[Question #2
What is the difference between Analogue and DCC I mean I understand Digital and Analogue but why go DCC?

Question #3
how does one use automatic switches? is there a controller for them? are they magnetically triggered? (I told you I was NEW to this)

Question#4
I plan to basically have a continuous loop to start with in the garden, but I would like to run more then one train at a time on the same track, how can I run two trains and compensate for different speeds? I don't want the trains to bump into each other.

Question #5
Is RC more beneficial then either Analogue or DCC?

Thanks for tolerating my questions.
 
OK, let's see.....

1) If you were in the UK, I'd recommend a Helmsman unit - but as you're across the Pond, I think some of the other North American forumites may be better placed to advise you on what is available over there.

2) With DCC, you can have complete independent control over two, three or more (technically up to dozens if you had enough power to the track) locos all running on the same track at the same time. You don't have to worry about complex track wiring, or isolated sections to "park" other locos. You can also have very sophisticated sound systems in locos, and have complete control of them from your handset. In very simple terms, a DCC system feeds continuous "full power" to the track all the time (in the form of an AC voltage but at a very much higher frequency than the sort of AC mains you have in your house, and of course at a much lower voltage) - usually around 18-24 volts depending on your type of DCC system. Each loco has in it a "decoder", which is a fancy little electronics board which reads the DCC control signals that being fed along the track (you don't really need to know how this is done, basically it's witchcraft... ;) ), and will ONLY respond to signal being "addressed" specifically to that loco. You'll see mentions of "loco addresses", these are numbers given to each loco to route these control signals correctly - eg: if you have your handset selecting loco address "12", then only the loco with it's decoder set to address "12" will respond to those commands. Once you've set loco 12 running, you can (if you wish) leave it to run and switch your controller to, say, loco "5" and control that; no.12 will happily continue to trundle on its way following the last command you gave it.
Now, this of course allows you to do what you ask in question (4) - with DCC it's easy, with DC ("analogue") then it isn't!

I skipped over (3) there.... there are various ways of controlling points (or switches as you chaps over there know them), it can be done with magnets and reed switches, or it can be done via a DCC system.... I don't have much personal experience of this, I'll let others answer this one much better than I can!

5) RC means you don't have to worry about cleaning track! It has various pros and cons, and there are many different proprietory systems of RC train control. Again, there are plenty of folks on here who will chime in on this one, and know far more than me about it!

Hope that all helps a bit?

Jon.
 
I will ignore Jons answers. Not because there is anything wrong with them - they are excellent. But I will give my views and you can pick the bits you like (or don't like) from everything.

1. As a beginner, I would go for a controller from one of the big train manufacturers. Your starter set controller will work but may soon be short on power. Makes such as LGB, Aristocraft, USA trains come to mind. You want at least 1 amp, preferably more. A few of us run 12 amps or more, but 5 would be a powerful unit to keep you going for a while.

2. Analogue - you turn the controller and all the locos on the track move. DCC - each loco, point, (even lights if you want) has an address number. You enter this number in your special controller and that one loco, point or whatever is controllable on its own - everything else stays still, even if power is going to it. You need a base station and a controller, plus a 'decoder; in each loco, point or whatever. not cheap, obviously.

3. DCC can do this, as above. Also loads of wires back to a switch box (basically a switch for each point) or semi automatic systems using detectors and relays. As easy or complicated as you want to make it.

4. with DCC you can run lots on one track , and vary the individual speeds at will. However if left alone one will catch up with another. One other way is to have sections switching on and off as trains pass detectors. A little involved but certainly doable.

5. A personal choice. Track power is usually analogue or DCC but can be RC using the correct kit. RC is more commonly used with battery power, this means putting a battery pack, a speed controller and a receiver in each loco (or a trailed van wired to the loco) Both have their limitations and advantages. I would suggest getting going with analogue track power and see how you get on.

Best advice is to find a local enthusiast and see what they do. It might be nice to be able to run on their layout so their system might prove most beneficial, whatever it is.
have a good look around before spending big money.
 
I would talk to a local enthusiast however I fear I am the only one :'( I live in a town of about 3600 people and we are located far from any major cities. so basically I may be the catalyst that gets the ball rolling here in my town. I figure the sooner I get my garden setup going the more people may get motivated to join the band wagon! ;D
 
You can't go far wrong with a basic lgb 1 amp controller, there easily available and very tough and have a small amount of weather proofing as standard.

Don't leave them out in the rain 24/7 but they could withstand a quick shower.


For your situation it sounds like the lgb Epl system might work, however it is an old system and the parts are getting expensive.

If you read http://kormsen.info/lgb-manual.pdf it might answer some questions and is a good introduction.

Dan
 
A lot of interrelated subjects there. They all have their own cost implications. It depends on where you want to end up so as not to invest a lot of money in a system you may well have to sell off at a loss later.

A simple DC setup for starters will result in the lowest cost outlay and risk. You really need about 5 amps as some locos can draw this on tight curves, on an incline and with a good load in tow.

Most product produced these days is designed for simple later upgrade, if not already fitted, with DCC in mind. But then you have to consider the cost of the basic DCC system and fitting every loco and accessory that you want to respond to that system. You might want to look at the principle make of stock you are going to buy, if LGB you are probably off down the DCC route already. If, literally, you see yourself wanting all the flashing lights bells and whistles (i.e. sound) you might want to prepare to go this way.

The alternative of R/C control can either be a system allied to track power - say like the Crest/Aristocraft Revolution, which in its basic form can be used as a simple walkabout speed controller. Adding functions such as individual loco/switch control can be done later as desire and budgets demand. Or, dispensing with track power and going battery on board each loco with a more conventional 2.4 ghz TX/RX system as means of control. That has its own cost and operational considerations. It's particularly beneficial if local conditions (and your back) make regular track cleaning chores prohibitive. Any conventional loco can be converted, within reason (somewhere to put 18 v's worth of AA cells, apart from a trailer) but the bigger the better, to this means of operation.

Point/switch actuation methods blends in with the above. Most switches will start life manually operated, most are designed with an easy upgrade path to electric or air powered motors. Depending on which option you have gone for with train operation this will determine what accessories - motors/momentary actuators/decoders you will invest in.

Start simple, see what will best meet your future needs as you develop the use of your line and then research what will best meet them. Well that's how I started 10 years ago - now still run DC (my old Aristocraft Train Engineer, don't want to annoy the neighbours)/Live Steam and some Battery R/C. Ripped out the electric point motors and actuators (sold for a profit) and now have air powered/manual set up. Simples. Max.
 
You can use the controller than comes with the Thomas set outside!

I have been doing this for a year while I figure out what I want to do long term. ;)

Need to find a way that works for you to bring it and connect it to the track etc
 
I really do like the sound of the DCC as it would allow to run multiple trains and control "points" er "switches" all from one location, My question would be after reading all this about the DCC, is it a Pulse width modulation motor control? I would assume so as I don't imagine it would have an analogue to digital converter. Also is it difficult to convert older engines to DCC?

I tend to be the guy who buys for the future so I would like to take into all accounts before making the purchase. ultimately I think I'd like to be able to have wireless control of most devices on the track without the hassle of RC signals and batteries, I also have RC trucks etc. and I find there is to much local interference.

I was looking at this controller and was wondering if anyone had experience with it or if you would recommend staying away from it.

here is the link http://www.hobbylinc.com/bachmann-e-z-command-dynamis-wireless-dcc-model-train-power-supply-transformer-36505

Thanks again.
 
The Bachmann Dynamis uses infra-red, so no use outdoors.

As a satisfied user of a US-made NCE DCC 10 amp system I'd suggest it's one to consider. I don't have experience of NCE's wireless capabilities (it's traditionally not been legal here in the UK but that may be changing). A lot of guys here in the UK will probably recommend Massoth, as it's a premium DCC system designed for large scale and which supports wireless throttles. Cheaper alternatives such as Piko (essentially a cut-down Massoth system) would also be worth looking at. Personally I'm not a fan of LGB MTS (certainly not the earlier versions) but some folk find it does all they want.

Yes DCC decoders use PWM motor control, with modern decoders usually running PWM 20Khz or more. This makes them nice and smooth and without the whine you get with low frequency PWM.

In my opinion it's not difficult to convert older engines to DCC, it just involves separating the motor from the pickup wiring and connecting the decoder in between. It helps to be handy with a soldering iron as Jon mentions below. We're fortunate that our large scale toys tend to have space available for a decoder, unlike the smaller scales where space in older models can be a problem unless the chassis block is milled out.
 
Handsomerob said:
I really do like the sound of the DCC as it would allow to run multiple trains and control "points" er "switches" all from one location, My question would be after reading all this about the DCC, is it a Pulse width modulation motor control? I would assume so as I don't imagine it would have an analogue to digital converter. Also is it difficult to convert older engines to DCC?

I tend to be the guy who buys for the future so I would like to take into all accounts before making the purchase. ultimately I think I'd like to be able to have wireless control of most devices on the track without the hassle of RC signals and batteries, I also have RC trucks etc. and I find there is to much local interference.

I was looking at this controller and was wondering if anyone had experience with it or if you would recommend staying away from it.

here is the link http://www.hobbylinc.com/bachmann-e-z-command-dynamis-wireless-dcc-model-train-power-supply-transformer-36505

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Yes, after the Arcane Magicks happen inside the decoder, it feeds PWM power (at a very high pulse frequency) to the motor.

Converting older locos (at least with LGB types) is generally not a problem, provided you are reasonably comfortable with wiring and basic electrics. I've put DCC decoders into 40-year-old LGB locos and they work fine - but you have to be prepared to dismantle the loco and re-wire it, the most important bit being that you have to isolate the track power pickups (wheel plungers and skates) from the motor, and then put the decoder in between them - so the power from the track goes to the decoder, then the output of the decoder goes to the motor(s). You'll also have to re-wire things like lights, connecting them to the relevant outputs of the decoder. As long as you're happy with a bit of basic soldering you'll be fine. The newer that locos get (as a general rule), the simpler the installation of DCC gets - up to most modern production locos which will have a simple "plug and play" interface, plug the decoder in and you're basically done.

To me, that Bachmann DCC controller looks like one for indoor layouts in the smaller scales - while it might be OK for running one or two small G scale locos, it probably won't have either the voltage or the amps available to be a serious large-scale system. You're best looking at a setup that is specifically designed for large scale layouts, that will deliver at least 5 amps at between 18 and 24 volts.

Just my own opinions, as ever, and others may have different and/or better suggestions!

Jon.
 
I'm o.k. with electronics, I'm a Mechanic by Trade for GM specializing in Electrical diagnostics and Engines. I guess it would be Holden over on your side of the world ;)

I'm very much o.k. with soldering and such as my formal schooling was in Computer Programmer / System Analyst I'm just trying to become knowledgeable in the different types of options available.

This looks like another viable option then? shows a 3.5 A output any thoughts on this one?

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mrc/mrc0001414.htm
 
This looks like another viable option then? shows a 3.5 A output any thoughts on this one?

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mrc/mrc0001414.htm
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The MRC Prodigy is another system intended for the smaller scales - up to about 15V I think. A touch low for large scale although locos will run on it, might be a bit slow! It's rebranded and sold over here in the UK by Gaugemaster.

I get the impression that MRC large scale decoders are generally thought of as rather "cheap and cheerful".


Just for info, this is the system I bought a few years ago (note that the 10 amp transformer was extra!)

http://www.amazon.com/NCE-PH-PRO-Powerhouse-Pro-Amp/dp/B00IVEOSC8

I'm NOT saying it's necessarily the right choice for you, it's more expensive than the systems you've looked at so far. I'd already decided that I definitely wanted to convert to DCC for my large scale stuff and I'd read up on a few DCC brands. I spent an entire weekend at an exhibition with my N scale layout, right next door to a DCC system seller so I had plenty of time to chat and to be convinced that I'd have enough room in my car to get the NCE set home along with all my layout gear!

I will say that NCE is a well established brand. I find the throttles to be user friendly. I like the additional modules such as the MiniPanel which has allowed me to make a push-button control panel for point control, in the form of a diagram mimicing the actual layout rather than having to remember address numbers for each point. NCE systems can be interfaced with the free JMRI software for decoder programming and layout control (something which unfortunately Massoth, Piko and MTS cannot do although there is other software compatible with these systems).
 
A budget option may be a second hand LGB MTS3 base unit and either an LGB contoller or the more advanced Massoth Navigator handset. Due to the obsolescence of the older systems, I could not recommend an older LGB setup than '3' but you might pick up a cheap set up. It will have limited functionality.
A premium system could be a Massoth 1210 system with a navigator controller but that will see off the best part of a 1000 dollars before you start.

As stated above, large scale uses 18 volts or more (up to about 24 V) and several amps. Its a bit involved but not difficult to get in to initially, but its not cheap so ask away - you will get loads of answers, some will conflict, some will agree. At the end of the day you make your own mind up. For what its worth - I would initially stick with one manufacturer for simplicity, although most makes have a lot of commonality to them.

keep reading here (and other places on the net) and you will slowly get the idea of what it does and what may work for you. You have time - use it.
 
stockers said:
keep reading here (and other places on the net) and you will slowly get the idea of what it does and what may work for you. You have time - use it.
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I totally agree Alan. It's not something to rush into. It could be the start of something great, on the other hand it may turn out not to be what you want or not worth the expense.

The good old approach of writing out a list of features / specifications you must have and features you'd like is worthwhile. Then research what the different systems DC, DCC, R/C can do to give you those features and for what cost.
 
DCC is the way forward but remember manufacturers like LGB use 24 volt DC motors and the output of the DCC decoder gives you PWM and if you want your loco to have maximum torque and pulling power then something like Massoth is the way to go. If you use a DCC system that is meant for the smaller scales the output is 15-16 volts and as so you do not get the maximum power out of your loco.
 
O.k. so it seems like this would be a good option then based on your input

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/nce/nce2.htm

I'm not jumping in to anything to quick there is still about 4 feet of snow out there, and a baby due in July so I'm just getting my ducks in a row I like to plan everything out in advance so I can do it right as it were.

I'd like to start with my small track layout and eventually expand, maybe head around the side of the house, etc. I just don't want to start analogue and then have to switch over to DCC to get all the effects I want, I'd rather start with too many features and not use them then to not have features later or have to take a loss on top of buying a new system.

I figure I can keep the small indoor track analogue for the kids enjoyment but for a more well controlled outdoor track with points (switches) and multiple trains I think this DCC is winning.

On a similar note is DCC programmable? like can you set it to move at one speed say on a flat and then throttle up for a hill, and throttle down for descending the hill?

I would love to be able to enter a program to completely automate a complex track system, but is the technology there yet?

P.S. My daughter loves the LGB but isn't a fan of the 4-6-0 Big Hauler

I would like to get a Diesel engine as well, here in Canada we have a few train companies and as a Memorial for my Grandfather who retired from the CPR (Candain Pacific Railway) I would like to have a line dedicated to him. I could also see adding a line in the future for my wife's grandfather who retired from the ACR (Algoma Central Railway) he is on into his mid 90's right now.

I come from a Town that was founded by the railway. It only later expanded once the highway came through. My great grandfather brought the first pickup truck in on a rail car before there where real roads.

Anyways enough of that, if there are any good reasons why I should stay away from DCC please let me know. I'll take all comments and statements into consideration.

Thanks again!
 
Hmm, I started out using LGB kit and their EPL system of magnets and miracles. I soon had to upgrade the transformers for outdoor use and bought Gaugemaster including a 5 amp jobbie for the locos with two motors. If I was starting again I wouldn't have bothered given the pain in the bum of the whole setup and would have gone digital, the greater expense meaning fewer locos and rolling stock, but ultimately more reliable.
 
Handsomerob said:
O.k. so it seems like this would be a good option then based on your input

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/nce/nce2.htm
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hmm... it's wireless which is good for large scale garden uses, but I think that's still a small scale system with a lower maximum voltage. If you want wireless large scale I think you need to look for a PH10-R set ? The 10 amp booster is set to the higher output voltage for large scale trains.

http://tonystrains.com/product/nce-power-pro-10r/

Even more expensive of course! The NCE system is excellent and I'd heartily endorse it, but it's not the cheapest - though I think it's competive with the likes of Massoth.

The problem is, you tend to get locked into one brand (or subset of brands) of command station and throttles due to the communication /networking protocol used between them. So you need to be sure the chosen brand has modules/features for all the things you want to do, either as part of the start set or as future upgrades.

The great thing about DCC is that the output DCC signal / protocol to the track is standardised, so you can use DCC decoders for locos and accessories from any brand you like which conforms to NMRA DCC standards. Just be aware that large scale DCC uses a higher voltage so ensure your chosen decoder is rated for it.


On a similar note is DCC programmable? like can you set it to move at one speed say on a flat and then throttle up for a hill, and throttle down for descending the hill?
Click to expand...

Load sensing / constant speed control / back-emf (BEMF] sensing is quite common in DCC decoders. PWM control lends itself to load sensing.

The more complex/expensive sound decoders can sense the load and simulate hard-working sounds under load and coasting for light loads.

I would love to be able to enter a program to completely automate a complex track system, but is the technology there yet?
Click to expand...
Yes, software is certainly out there to do this. Other folk on here have played with it more than I have. More complex automation requires some form of feedback technology to tell the software about the location of the trains etc. This might be hardware sensors (reed switches and magnets, infra-red detectors etc), or more recently some DCC decoders have had "transponding" capabilities added whereby they transmit details as they pass suitable receiver modules.
 
So looking at some posts and by doing some internet searches it looks like I can convert my analogue trains to DCC but I should be able to install a switch or two to allow me to go back and forth from DCC to analogue.

Does that sound right? or am I missing something?
 
There is no need for a switch. Most DCC decoders will work on DCC and DC but not on analogue PWM which will harm the DCC decoder. You will also find that DCC will run on a much dirtier track than DC.
 
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