Battery powered track

seigezapf said:
Thanks Trammayo for the compliment and I like your idea Jon, though the other parts of life might become difficult. That is a nice image Phil. I have so many trees that sunlight is precious, but I'm sure it can be worked out.

Dan, here is a link to the type of speed controller I showed. There are several on eBay - this is one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Motor-Sp...926519?hash=item1a12e1a177:g:Et4AAOSwZetXOXGe I just searched for a motor speed controller with reverse that would operate on 12v.

In further thinking, I have been leaning toward a speed control with a remote. I'm going to try that out with a Pololu robotic motor controller that can be controlled with a DSM receiver and transmitter. I would eventually want a simple remote and think the one shown below might work well (though only designed for 12v). It does have a "momentum" feature that might be useful. Here is a link to it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261902533498?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



It is interesting that I can find a lot of this sort of stuff in Asia, but not much here (I would prefer a US seller).

Now to start thinking of a shed design while waiting for my battery components to arrive.
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Thanks for the links. At those prices it would be worth the experimentation with the R/C device. A hell of alot less expensive than the devices I currently use. But maybe not all of the features.
 
Success with R/C. I hooked up a Pololu 18v15 Simple Motor Control powered by the 12v Hobbico battery and controlled by a DSM type RX and Spektrum DX5e TX. Worked perfectly on a test track. I'll try it outside on the track tomorrow, but I don't know why there should be any problems.

 
seigezapf said:
Success with R/C. I hooked up a Pololu 18v15 Simple Motor Control powered by the 12v Hobbico battery and controlled by a DSM type RX and Spektrum DX5e TX. Worked perfectly on a test track. I'll try it outside on the track tomorrow, but I don't know why there should be any problems.

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The only problems I experience is one of electrical continuity. You need to make sure you have good connections between one rail and the next. The higher voltages provided by transformer supplied track help overcome slightly less than perfect joints. I have persevered for ten years now with battery fed track - used to run the garden line all the time off a battery until a severe cold spell ruined the car battery!

And you need to keep the track clean!
 
Battery Power has been in use for many many Years. I remember in 50's Magazines talk of using Accumulators and Car Batteris for Power Supply. Presumably because Midel Railway Transformers were somewhat hard to come by. I guess it may also have been true that many houses in those days may not even have had Mains Electricity. I believe it was possible to Hump a Car Battery or Accumulator to a Shop that would recharge it for you.

Moving forward to today, you do get all the disadvantedpges of 2 Rail and personally I feel you might be better off investigating On Board Battery Power for a Smaller Fleet. How many Locomotives can you run at one time, particularly of you are using relatively Small Ampage Batteries?
JonD
 
Thanks Mick. I was concerned about conductivity around the track, but it seems OK. The track was new when I laid it down and the connectors were tight. That may change over time.

JonD I figured track battery power had been used before I tried it, I just had never come across mention of it. Both of you mention car batteries. I thought about them, but was concerned that all that amperage did not mix well with thin wires and small motors. I do realize that car wiring and small motors (e.g. power window) run off a car battery. There must be limiters in the circuit somewhere when using a car battery. Did you use some form of limiter Mick?

Jon, my track is definitely modest in size, though I have plans to enlarge it a little. I typically will run one train at a time. I still have several locomotives that I am converting to on-board battery power - a Bachmann Consolidation, a Bachmann Mogul, and several others. I experimented with several systems with mixed success and am probably heading toward Crest with them. I like the idea of track power for the smaller ones like the Davenports and 2-4-2 and 0-4-0 steamers.

Mick, I had to replace the battery in my small sports car every year after wintering in my unheated garage. Then I bought a solar powered battery tender and have not had to replace one yet. I would definitely use one if I stored a battery outside.
 
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seigezapf said:
Thanks Mick. I was concerned about conductivity around the track, but it seems OK. The track was new when I laid it down and the connectors were tight. That may change over time.

JonD I figured track battery power had been used before I tried it, I just had never come across mention of it. Both of you mention car batteries. I thought about them, but was concerned that all that amperage did not mix well with thin wires and small motors. I do realize that car wiring and small motors (e.g. power window) run off a car battery. There must be limiters in the circuit somewhere when using a car battery. Did you use some form of limiter Mick?

I had to replace the battery in my small sports car every year after wintering in my unheated garage. Then I bought a solar powered battery tender and have not had to replace one yet. I would definitely use one if I stored a battery outside.
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In any circuit under normal circumstances, the maximum current is limited by the internal resistance of the load. So a locomotive that draws a high of one amp when pulling a heavy train will only ever draw one amp, even if the battery can supply hundreds of amps. The risk comes if a load suddenly appears with a very low resistance, like a short circuit. Then as much current will flow as the next highest resistance part of the circuit will allow, which can easily be tens or hundreds of amps resulting in something melting. That's why it's good to have a fuse so that in the event of short circuit it melts rather than your loco or rail joins. Even a small gel cell will easily supply 50-100 amps of short circuit current, so a fuse is a good idea for any battery. So the short version is you don't NEED a fuse for it to work, but it's a good idea and will avoid fireworks and magic smoke escaping if something goes wrong. :)

How to take care of batteries for a good lifespan depends on the battery chemistry, but as a very general rule they don't like being discharged too much and don't like being over charged. A lead acid battery like a gel cell is completely flat when the voltage goes below about 11v or so under load. A lot of cars have constant small electrical loads which will eventually discharge the battery if they're not driven regularly, which can permanently damage it. For anything more than short term storage it's best to completely isolate the battery from any loads (take the wire off one of the terminals) and store it charged.
 
seigezapf said:
Thanks Mick. I was concerned about conductivity around the track, but it seems OK. The track was new when I laid it down and the connectors were tight. That may change over time.

JonD I figured track battery power had been used before I tried it, I just had never come across mention of it. Both of you mention car batteries. I thought about them, but was concerned that all that amperage did not mix well with thin wires and small motors. I do realize that car wiring and small motors (e.g. power window) run off a car battery. There must be limiters in the circuit somewhere when using a car battery. Did you use some form of limiter Mick?

Jon, my track is definitely modest in size, though I have plans to enlarge it a little. I typically will run one train at a time. I still have several locomotives that I am converting to on-board battery power - a Bachmann Consolidation, a Bachmann Mogul, and several others. I experimented with several systems with mixed success and am probably heading toward Crest with them. I like the idea of track power for the smaller ones like the Davenports and 2-4-2 and 0-4-0 steamers.

Mick, I had to replace the battery in my small sports car every year after wintering in my unheated garage. Then I bought a solar powered battery tender and have not had to replace one yet. I would definitely use one if I stored a battery outside.
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My only limiter is an appropriate size fuse - 3amp blade type car fuse. The speed controller reduces the voltage anyway, and all you have to decide is how many locos you will run at once and what the total amerage will be in that case. You're really just protecting locos and controls from short circuits.

You could fit a circuit breaker - which you just manually reset - but I didn't go down that road because some CBs need to cool down before they can be reset. I just buy a bag of fuses on ebay!

If I use the Train Engineer, that is fused at 10amp but the connecting lead from the battery is still fused at 3a!

And yes, the Solar Power Battery thing is what my brother uses for his Landrover - he keeps telling me I should buy one (not a landy)>
 
Thanks Melbournesparks. Very good information, very clearly explained. I suppose the few times I created big sparks while working on my car was strongly in my mind. I do think my car had a small drain - maybe a clock or something - so I should have disconnected the battery cable.

Thanks Mick. I did put a fuse in the positive lead from the battery. You can just see it in the photo. I will do that for all of the battery leads. It is an inline fuse holder for cartridge fuses. I have a 5a one in there now, but could easily change it to a 3a one. I don't think any of my locos draw over an amp, but I might double head.
 
I received the wheelchair batteries, charged them and wired up connectors. They are 12v, 18Ah batteries that weight about 20lbs each. My plan is to hook one up tomorrow.



I know that 12v track power has been fine running most of my track powered locos. I have a Crest Revolution system and currently am running one receiver off battery power in A Bachmann Consoidation. I would like to try another receiver using just track power. The battery powered loco is running on a 14.8 volts Li-ion pack and does OK. I don't know if a track powered receiver will work on 12v. I guess I'll just have to try it out.

In a related question, If I were to have a locomotive that was DCC controlled (I don't), would it work on my track hooked directly up to the 12v battery? I know virtually nothing about DCC except that I think it sends signals though the track. My belief is that it would not work. I think there are alternatives such as the DRS1 DCC system which essentially adds a transmitter to the DCC command station and receivers to the locomotive decoders. This is just curiosity on my part since I don't have DCC.
 
Some DCC locos do work on DC. LGB usually do.

However, it is possible to set a CV so that the loco runs on DCC only. You will need DCC kit or a friendly Grailer to change this for DC running....
 
seigezapf said:
I received the wheelchair batteries, charged them and wired up connectors. They are 12v, 18Ah batteries that weight about 20lbs each. My plan is to hook one up tomorrow.



I know that 12v track power has been fine running most of my track powered locos. I have a Crest Revolution system and currently am running one receiver off battery power in A Bachmann Consoidation. I would like to try another receiver using just track power. The battery powered loco is running on a 14.8 volts Li-ion pack and does OK. I don't know if a track powered receiver will work on 12v. I guess I'll just have to try it out.

In a related question, If I were to have a locomotive that was DCC controlled (I don't), would it work on my track hooked directly up to the 12v battery? I know virtually nothing about DCC except that I think it sends signals though the track. My belief is that it would not work. I think there are alternatives such as the DRS1 DCC system which essentially adds a transmitter to the DCC command station and receivers to the locomotive decoders. This is just curiosity on my part since I don't have DCC.
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I don't very much about DCC except that the system uses AC to the track so I would say that DC track would not operate a DCC loco unless it was switched to analogue.

As regards your other question, I have the Train Engineer - and that works fine on 12 - 14v DC direct to the track.

And I also have a wheelchair battery for feeding the track (either T.E. or tethered control)! It is heavy though and has no carrying handle - unlike the the car battery that I also use. Incidentally, the w'chair battery lasts a long time before recharge (although it does take a while to charge up!).
 
Most LGB Chips will Operate on DC just fine. But if the Chip has been altered to NOT run on DC then the Chip will require a CV Update as mentioned by Gizzy.

I would also again reiterate the importance of a Good Fuse. Also note that you may Kill the Battery if you empty it of charge too often. Experience in use will probably tell you when you need to think about a recharge.
JonD
 
The first thing the battery sees on the way to ANY equipment / track / what-have-you MUST be a fuse.. Start small (if you only run one single loco 2Amps) increase the fuse size if you run more and it blows because of load, rather than a fault.
 
Thank you guys for the replies. Yep, I forgot the fuse, but I now have one in the circuit. I am using a cylindrical fuse holder so can change fuse values as needed. I have a 3 amp fuse in there now.

I installed a Revolution receiver in a track powered locomotive - an Aristocraft RS3. On the 12v wheelchair battery it kinda works, but kinda not. It seems to intermittently lose power. I cleaned the wheels which helped, but I also think I need to clean the track better. Some locomotives do fine - e.g. the Rogers 2-4-2. It may be that the track pickups on the RS3 are not as efficient.

Wheelchair batteries often come in pairs, maybe always do. So I wired the two batteries in series to see if higher voltage made a difference. I measured the track voltage and it was right around 26 volts. I was not sure if this too much that might harm the Revolution receiver so I didn't try it. The receivers specs say 12-24 volts.

I wired in the speed/direction control I mentioned earlier to see if I could bump the voltage down, but on 26 volts it did not pass any power and later when I tried it at 12 volts the rheostat had no effect. I think it may be defective. I have just ordered a DC/DC buck step down unit.

Here's a naive question. When using a Crest Revolution (Train Engineer) would a locomotive have better track pickup at say 24 volts than 12 volts. I know the motor is only receiving the voltage that is being controlled from the transmitter, but I wondered if the level of track power had any effect other than allowing a higher possible speed.

A thunderstorm stopped today's progress. I'll clean the track tomorrow and see if that makes a difference.

I do have a question for Jon and Gizzy. You both mention a CV. What is that? I doubt you meant curriculum vitae.

Again, thanks all for your help and advice.

Oh, and Mick, those wheelchair batteries each took me overnight to charge.
 
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seigezapf said:
Oh, and Mick, those wheelchair batteries each took me overnight to charge.
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I'm using a digital charger, I guess it is just charging at trickle rate. It isn't a new one (the battery) but it will charge up to around 14.1 volt. For the car battery I use a conventional charger and that does charge overnight.

A higher voltage does conduct better and, as you guess, some locos pick up better than others. I find that some of my Aristo locos (like the Rogers or the 0-4-0) seem to run quite fast compared to Bachmann or LGB ones. Mind you, the Bachmann Thomas stuff runs a lot faster than their conventional stuff!
 
seigezapf said:
I do have a question for Jon and Gizzy. You both mention a CV. What is that? I doubt you meant curriculum vitae.
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CV is 'configuration variable' , the means of making adjustments to your decoder for thinks like lighting, direction, torque, braking, etc, as well as the address of the loco or device such as a signal or point motor....

http://www.dccwiki.com/Configuration_Variable
 
Gizzy beat me to the CV thing, sorry got a bit techie.

With Track, whatever you use Clean Track (or dirty to be exact) will always be an issue. No matter what the voltage both rail and wheel pickup clenliness has always to be considered. For instance, my line is used by multiple visitors for Timetable Running. Every time I have one of these Gigs I clean all the Track with an LGB Track Cleaner till nice and shiny. In truth this will give me a few weeks of good running between visitors, however Rain can and does affect this by throwing up crud and retarnishing the Track. These things generally still do not affect me too much as I am using predominantly Large Locomotives, 2-10-2's and 0-4-4-0's, so plenty of Pickups. With small Locomotives your issues will be more problamatical. Hence my suggestion to go down the On board Battery route some posts back.

Smaller loco pickups can be critical, it does pay to ensure that all your wheels and skates (if fitted) are in working order. Easily tested with a couple of wires. Though if you have a Meter it is better to use this on a Continuity Setting. Hold one wire on one side of the Loco then use the other wire on the other side to check that the motor works when you touch each wheel and pickup skate. Be very careful if using your Battery Setup to do this that you do not inadvertantly touch the two wires together or put them to the same side of your Loco. Repeat on the other side. Clearly if one wheel does not work you have a problem that will seriously affect running. Generally it may be a Wire or Wheel Pickup Plunger that is at fault. Note that not all trailing or leading wheels (if any) may be fitted with Track Pickup. You can see this by looking at the Wheels to see where the Plungers are fitted.
JonD
 
Thanks JonD. That is very helpful information. I have a track cleaning pad attached to a caboose that I run around the track for 5-10 minutes of so, but I think maybe hand cleaning with an LGB track cleaner - if that is what you meant - would be more effective. I have several locomotives that I have converted to on board battery power including the one that takes the cleaning caboose around the track. I still have some that are unconverted that I was happy to find would run with the battery powered track.
 
If you have a ground-level track, and/or one where parts are difficult to access, we were discussing a few weeks ago about mounting an LGB or similar track-cleaning block onto the end of a broom handle, possibly using the kind of universal ball-joint that is used for a long-handled dry wall sander...... building something like that will reduce the amount of bending and kneeling required for manual cleaning of the track.

Jon.
 
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