Converting LGB to R/C

[beavercreek]

IMPORTANT NEWS FOR MATT (backed up by PM) plus anyone else following this.

Yesterday I took delivery of 2 more of these Li-ion batteries from the previously linked ebay seller and it appears that it is the FEMALE lead that is switched on these. The upshot is that this must be checked before following Peter's / my way of fitting these batteries and cutting the leads.

So this means that the male feed is the permantly live one, and you just need to end the circuit in a female connector?

I need to check to make sure 100% that the male lead is permanently live, but yes, that would be the case - and this leaves the female lead as the charging socket.

Isn't it always....

 

[yb281]

IMPORTANT NEWS FOR MATT (backed up by PM) plus anyone else following this.

Yesterday I took delivery of 2 more of these Li-ion batteries from the previously linked ebay seller and it appears that it is the FEMALE lead that is switched on these. The upshot is that this must be checked before following Peter's / my way of fitting these batteries and cutting the leads.

So this means that the male feed is the permantly live one, and you just need to end the circuit in a female connector?

I need to check to make sure 100% that the male lead is permanently live, but yes, that would be the case - and this leaves the female lead as the charging socket.

Thanks for the warning, is it obvious which one is the switched one, or can you only tell by testing?

Best advice I can give is to give it a charge for a few hours and then test it, that way it will become obvious. You really don't want to be cutting a permanently live lead due to the likelyhood of shorting it out.

 

[yb281]

OK, having finally tracked down my circuit tester - I can confirm that on these new batteries, BOTH leads are switched (by the same switch).

This is good news and bad news;
Good news is - the leads can be attached in any configuration you like (although the female is always used for charging obviously) and either lead can be cut, AS LONG AS YOU MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT THE BATTERY IS SWITCHED OFF FIRST.

Bad news is - you will need access to the battery at the beginning and end of a running session (and before charging) to turn it on and off. This isn't really an issue if you're putting the battery in a trail car (luckily I am with these 2), but would be a pain if you were planning on burying the battery inside a loco.

 

[whatlep]

OK, having finally tracked down my circuit tester - I can confirm that on these new batteries, BOTH leads are switched (by the same switch).

This is good news and bad news;
Good news is - the leads can be attached in any configuration you like (although the female is always used for charging obviously) and either lead can be cut, AS LONG AS YOU MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT THE BATTERY IS SWITCHED OFF FIRST.

Bad news is - you will need access to the battery at the beginning and end of a running session (and before charging) to turn it on and off. This isn't really an issue if you're putting the battery in a trail car (luckily I am with these 2), but would be a pain if you were planning on burying the battery inside a loco.

May I emphasise Mel's capitals strongly. Before tinkering with any Li-ion battery's leads, check and check again whether the leads are live. The energy released in a Li-ion battery if you short it is much, much higher than an ordinary battery. If in doubt, DON'T tinker.

Now, that said, you may well be OK leaving the "blue" battery type switched on permanently, provided that there is no load being taken off it from your receiver/ controller. See the results of my testing earlier last year here: http://www.gscalecentral.net/tm?m=165095&high=Li-ion

My own experience using the same Cliff Barker receiver/controllers as Mel is that the battery loses charge extremely slowly, but the two LEDs on the receiver can drain it in a week if there is no isolating switch between battery and receiver.

 

[beavercreek]

This isn't really an issue if you're putting the battery in a trail car (luckily I am with these 2), but would be a pain if you were planning on burying the battery inside a loco.

Could another switch be placed in an extension to the male lead (which could be made easily accesible) outside to turn the supply on an off whilst the main switch on the battery is left on? Also an extension (with possibly another switch) to the female charging socket could be made if needed with another charging jack added..........

 

[yb281]

This isn't really an issue if you're putting the battery in a trail car (luckily I am with these 2), but would be a pain if you were planning on burying the battery inside a loco.

Could another switch be placed in an extension to the male lead (which could be made easily accesible) outside to turn the supply on an off whilst the main switch on the battery is left on? Also an extension (with possibly another switch) to the female charging socket could be made if needed with another charging jack added..........

Well with the Cliff Barker receivers, that's pretty much what you've got Mike. The issue remains that the battery has an in-built LED to warn that it's switched on and it's that that would (eventually) drain the battery. As Peter says, it would take a while, but it sort of reduces the advantage of using these batteries - ie a about 2 or 3 months running between charges in the case of my Corpet.

 

[beavercreek]

Ah yes, now I see, Mel..
I am embarking on getting a couple of locos RC-ed using the Revolution kit and am looking at batteries (I did sat that I was going to do this before Christmas but events put all projects on hold).
The revo stuff works at higher voltage than the 12 volt ones so I am looking for 18v jobbies and obviously with charger and flying leads if possible. Do you know a supplier of these at a reasonable cost?

 

[yb281]

The revo stuff works at higher voltage than the 12 volt ones so I am looking for 18v jobbies and obviously with charger and flying leads if possible. Do you know a supplier of these at a reasonable cost?

In a word, no mate. I'll keep an eye out though.

 

[Phil]

The revo stuff works at higher voltage than the 12 volt ones so I am looking for 18v jobbies and obviously with charger and flying leads if possible. Do you know a supplier of these at a reasonable cost?

In a word, no mate. I'll keep an eye out though.

Thats two!

 

[beavercreek]

The problem with drill, trimmer etc batteries are that they have a lot of extra size due their charger clipping and tool clipping mechanisms. I was hoping that there might be 18v varieties of the 12v ones mentioned on this thread.

 

[CoggesRailway]

Can i just mention that if you are converting a small slow running prototype a tamiya nimh battery is very cheap and simple and will give hours og performance. Mel is right about the led. While it takes about two weeks to flatten it (not tested just seemed about that) it does lead to frustration occaisionally. I standardised around nimh as i have seen a helicopter lithium battery go off and it was (literally) like a welders torch. This combined with the fact my electronic skills are a little "experimental" led me to nimh.

 

[GAP]

After reading the preceding posts about shorting batteries may I offer this advice.
Most leads are made from what is known a Figure 8 cable (looking end on tells you why).
To safely cut Fig8 while it is still connected to a live source separate the 2 conductors and carefully cut each wire separately, I have done this more times than I have had hot dinners sometimes in roof cavities and the inside if aircraft.
The safest way to cut the wires and not to short your cutters across the wires is to cut the wires at different lengths leaving staggered cut ends which can be taped up as each lead is cut.
As for the LED if access can be made to the leads then cut it out, after all who need a pretty light inside a box that no one can see?
I too use NiMh and I can get about 4-6 hours of running from a loco which is enough for a running session, but I can see some merit in these batteries if they are Li Ion if they are LiPo I would not touch them with a very long barge pole.
Just the opinion of an old avionics / electronics technician for consideration, believe me you would not like to see some of the methods I use to modify stuff, if I did it at work I would be sacked.

 

[GAP]

Ah yes, now I see, Mel..
I am embarking on getting a couple of locos RC-ed using the Revolution kit and am looking at batteries (I did sat that I was going to do this before Christmas but events put all projects on hold).
The revo stuff works at higher voltage than the 12 volt ones so I am looking for 18v jobbies and obviously with charger and flying leads if possible. Do you know a supplier of these at a reasonable cost?

Don't quote me on this but I think my neighbor is running Revolution R/C gear on 12V. He is running LGB Stainz on it.
If you need more than 12V have you considered hooking up 2 batteries in series to give you 24V? Its more than you would need but some sort of regulation circuit would drop it down eg the 7800 series voltage regulator chips.
Andrew if you read this you may be of some help here.

 

[matthew]

OK, having finally tracked down my circuit tester - I can confirm that on these new batteries, BOTH leads are switched (by the same switch).

This is good news and bad news;
Good news is - the leads can be attached in any configuration you like (although the female is always used for charging obviously) and either lead can be cut, AS LONG AS YOU MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT THE BATTERY IS SWITCHED OFF FIRST.

Bad news is - you will need access to the battery at the beginning and end of a running session (and before charging) to turn it on and off. This isn't really an issue if you're putting the battery in a trail car (luckily I am with these 2), but would be a pain if you were planning on burying the battery inside a loco.

May I emphasise Mel's capitals strongly. Before tinkering with any Li-ion battery's leads, check and check again whether the leads are live. The energy released in a Li-ion battery if you short it is much, much higher than an ordinary battery. If in doubt, DON'T tinker.

Now, that said, you may well be OK leaving the "blue" battery type switched on permanently, provided that there is no load being taken off it from your receiver/ controller. See the results of my testing earlier last year here: http://www.gscalecentral.net/tm?m=165095&high=Li-ion

My own experience using the same Cliff Barker receiver/controllers as Mel is that the battery loses charge extremely slowly, but the two LEDs on the receiver can drain it in a week if there is no isolating switch between battery and receiver.

I've purchased connectors so that i don't have to cut any wires on the battery, just seems much safer to me...And now that both wires are switched...Almost all of our loco's are run atleast one a week, so leaving the battery permantly on should be ok, and just giving it a charge once a week.

 

[matthew]

Good decision Matt

I thought i would save you lot from the worrying

 

[whatlep]

After reading the preceding posts about shorting batteries may I offer this advice.
Most leads are made from what is known a Figure 8 cable (looking end on tells you why).

That's incorrect. The Li-ion batteries referred to in this and various other threads have two thin plastic-sheathed wires side by side inside a single outer cable sheath. They cannot be separated.

As for the LED if access can be made to the leads then cut it out, after all who need a pretty light inside a box that no one can see?

Do not try this - it requires dismantling the Li-ion battery which is not a safe or wise thing to do.
Don't blame GSC if you tinker with these batteries and end up in casualty with burns or fire damage to your home.

 

[matthew]

Do not try this - it requires dismantling the Li-ion battery which is not a safe or wise thing to do.
Don't blame GSC if you tinker with these batteries and end up in casualty with burns or fire damage to your home.

This will be the outcome if you do short circuit it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjAtBiTSsKY&feature=related < Link To http://www.youtube.com/wa...KY&feature=related

Looking at what can happen it seems amazing that things like these can be sold with no safety warning what so ever.

 

[whatlep]

This will be the outcome if you do short circuit it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjAtBiTSsKY&feature=related < Link To http://www.youtube.com/wa...KY&feature=related

Looking at what can happen it seems amazing that things like these can be sold with no safety warning what so ever.

Apart from the list of warnings on every battery of course..... 8|
Excellent video by the way. Every battery can ignite if shorted, but the much higher energy in Li-ion cells makes them a far higher risk in careless hands.

GSCers: don't say you weren't warned.

 

[Andrew]

In reply to GAP.
I am using revolution with 12 volt NI-MH. - which is 10 aa batteries at 3000 mAh. These are the cheap chinese batteries - probably not 3000 mAH but pretty big capacity. If they die, well at $12 au for 12 batteries with free postage I am not to worried.
I use a trail car to hold these batteries, as well as Mylocosound & aristo revolution. I originally had 18 volts but the Revolution used to cut out due to heat.
Reduced volts down to 12 which runs Aristocraft lil critter. My trail car has a cable & plug in cable so it can be used to power any loco - all mine are 0-4-0 configeration.

I also run Stainz, Aristo Rogers, Lil Critter on to the Hobby king system. I have also converted Bachman big Haulers & LGB 2-4-0 to this system.
Battery power lasts longer than I can use in one session. I have yet to time it but at least 3 hours continous running with 5 bachman side dump coal cars with steel wheels. I have about 2 degree incline on part of my track. I use the Sandstone & Termite Railway method of charging the batteries.
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/battery.htm < Link To http://www.members.optusn..com.au/satr/battery.htm

This is my method, - I enjoy it, it works, it is cheap, but my advice is to work out what you want, at the price you can afford, then enjoy it.
I now also use Hobby king gear because it works out to about $50 au per loco all completed and running including postage.
I am not an electronics buff, but installation following the Sandstone & Termite walkthrough it is easy. Once again it came down to cost. I wanted a system where visitors have control to a loco they want to use. The Hobbyking transmitters are much larger than many hand held units, but it suits me.
Cheers from Andrew
Sandbar & Mudcrab Railway

 

[MRail]

An interesting site, which touches briefly on another aspect of Li batteries, leading to another question:-

Individual Li ion cells at 3.7V are widely available, some with tags.
If these are made into a pack of say, 4 at 13.6V, what is the correct way to charge the pack?
Perhaps one for Ross?