DCC - wiring my layout?

S

Sarah Winfield

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I am at the stage when it is crossing my mind I have to consider how to wire my layout, although I do still have someway to go..

The reason for choosing DCC was because I have had difficulties in the past sorting out the wiring for DC.

I think I am right in thinking I can run simultaneous locomotives on the same piece of track.. Does that put an end to section switches, please?

Is there a rule where to feed the track, please?

Thanks,

Sarah Winfield
 
You can have many loco's on track at once..
Any you have set going, will keep going when you select a different address..
There is a 'Stop all' button on systems for when it all gets too much! :eek:;):nod:
You do need to think about track polarity on loops. - A reverse-loop module takes care of this.

In theory, you should feed at one end. - Technically, the rails form a transmission-line..
But in practice, you stuff power in where most convenient. Some people have heavy-duty wire, and uses 'droppers' to feed in several places.
It does not matter if your track is electrically a 'ring'.

Hope that helps?
PhilP.
 
Looking at the recent incarnations of Track Plan that Sarah will be using, there would certainly be a need with the reverce loops for a Reverce Loop module QUESTION ??? Will one do both ???. This will also suggest some form of isolation for said loops. If Massoth Modules are purchased the short sections of Track included and Track Clamps also included will take care of all that. Also allowing places for additional wiring feeds if the need arrises.
 
For reliability purposes it makes sense to provide more than just one single track feeding point. Although I screwed all my track together with Massoth track connectors and protected the connecting surfaces with battery terminal grease (right word?) to reduce transition resistance, I laid an earth cable in parallel to the track to supply at least 4 feeding points (see the red stars). Only one section of the rail triangle needed to be insulated and connected to a reverse-loop module (pink section).
Bahnhof_feed.jpg
 
Sarah,

Why don't you eliminate your problems completely by not having any wiring at all. By converting your locos to battery radio control you get complete operating flexibility (locos can be anywhere at any time), no restrictions on reversing loops, no wiring and no track cleaning. If you wanted to take a look at that option I suggest you contact Steve Foster at Fosworks who can tell you all about it.

Regards
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound
 
When I got back into the hobby I thought about those aspects I am not very proficient at and are a complete pain.

Wiring and track cleaning!

I already had one DCC locomotive and unthinkingly bought 3 more. I should have taken more time over my decision.

What I will say though I did venture into R/C with my 0 gauge but I found it almost as frustrating. That must have been 10+ years ago. I didn't get the reliability I'd hoped for.

I expect things have moved on.

Sarah Winfield
 
Sarah Winfield said:
When I got back into the hobby I thought about those aspects I am not very proficient at and are a complete pain.

Wiring and track cleaning!

I already had one DCC locomotive and unthinkingly bought 3 more. I should have taken more time over my decision.

What I will say though I did venture into R/C with my 0 gauge but I found it almost as frustrating. That must have been 10+ years ago. I didn't get the reliability I'd hoped for.

I expect things have moved on.

Sarah Winfield
Click to expand...
Battery could indeed be the answer to your problems Sarah. However conversions are not for the one who is reluctant to pull things apart. Though I guess that there may be a couple on here that would do it for you. Lots of systems to go for, I am using Fosworks that do make things quite easy with ready supplied wiring looms that join everything together. Though there are other very good suppliers and I think that many will take on conversions for you.
 
Good morning Jon.

You are probably right but I think I'm to committed to DCC and anyway I should persevere for a while. At least DCC has eliminated some aspects of having to wire and put in switches for sections etc.

Can the Stainz type locomotive be converted do you know please?

Sarah Winfield
 
Sarah Winfield said:
Good morning Jon.

You are probably right but I think I'm to committed to DCC and anyway I should persevere for a while. At least DCC has eliminated some aspects of having to wire and put in switches for sections etc.

Can the Stainz type locomotive be converted do you know please?

Sarah Winfield
Click to expand...
Stainz has been converted look at GE-Riks blog. Thinking a little about your layout I have done a quick diagram for you, very simple but as I am not sure which of the suggested layouts you are going for I have chosen basing on what you appear to be laying. All would be pretty similar but note for the revercing sections you would need a Massoth or LGB reverce loop module. These do not take kindly to being left outside so may need to be based in your shed with longish wires leading to the rails.
5801050A-512B-4961-806B-C4E2AD94D483.jpeg

Hope this helps some. Reliability would be assisted some by having a duplicate feed at the other end of the Garden perhaps in the area that is not included in the Diagram Copy. No section switches required!
 
Moonraker said:
Sarah,

Why don't you eliminate your problems completely by not having any wiring at all. By converting your locos to battery radio control you get complete operating flexibility (locos can be anywhere at any time), no restrictions on reversing loops, no wiring and no track cleaning. If you wanted to take a look at that option I suggest you contact Steve Foster at Fosworks who can tell you all about it.

Regards
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound
Click to expand...

Peter, one could respond:

1. reversing loops are simple
2. wiring layout one time vs. a lot more work to do multiple battery installs
3. locos can be anywhere at any time on a DCC layout also, and in terms of time, no batteries to run out.
4. DCC track power less expensive than battery on a per loco basis.
5. DCC in small locos easier since no room taken by battery
6. don't have to buy battery chargers
7. track power does not need replacement like batteries eventually do
8. DCC users never worry about using power for smoke or extras

Battery power is not a universal panacea ... each method has pros and cons, it's not all on the battery side. Saying that going to battery will "eliminate your problems completely" is simply not true, you trade one set of problems for another.

The reason I post is because Sarah has committed to DCC and is learning the ins and outs already. It's working for her.

Greg
 
Sarah,

I understand that you have an investment in DCC and want to work through all the wiring and operating issues. And you still have the joys of understanding long addresses and CVs ahead of you. However, if things get too hard, there is a simple fix available.

You could purchase or build yourself a radio van to couple behind whichever loco you want to run at the time. These vans contain the batteries and the radio control (and yes, a soundcard if you want sound). In my experience, the batteries would normally run for 3-4 hours and would have a life of 8-10 years. If you supplied the van and used 14v C cell batteries, the cost would be about £150 or £215 with sound. I took the costs from the Fosworks price list.

The only modification to your locos would be to run two wires from the motor to a socket in the back. Then you just couple up the radio van and plug it in when you want to run that loco. The DCC can stay in place in case you want to use it or sell the loco later. If you only aim to run one loco at a time then only one van is needed. Simple.

Hope this helps.
Regards
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound
 
Peter, don't want to be a spoiler, but perhaps you missed something important:

If these locos have DCC in them (which they do), then feeding PWM outputs from the radio control ESC will be a problem, most DCC decoders do not interpret PWM as DC, but as imperfect DCC and basically go nuts.

So the DCC cannot stay in place, it would have be be removed. (or you could try filtering the ESC output)... of course now you lose all your DCC control, only having speed and direction control.

A better option would be deadrail if you are bound and determined to run battery given DCC decoders already fitted.

The battery van would need a deadrail "receiver/booster" and then you feed the DCC signal to the loco (probably best to disconnect the track pickups, but you could most likely get away without)

Now Sarah would also need to fit a deadrail "transmitter" to the track output of her DCC command station.

This would then be battery power, still retaining the DCC functionality and cost the least.

Regards, Greg
 
Greg,

With the connection I proposed, the decoders red and black inputs are not powered, only the orange and brown connections to the motor see DC volts from zero to about fifteen. Therefore I don't think the decoder would wake up at all.

Regards
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound
 
Sorry peter, you said:

The only modification to your locos would be to run two wires from the motor to a socket in the back. Then you just couple up the radio van and plug it in when you want to run that loco. The DCC can stay in place in case you want to use it or sell the loco later. If you only aim to run one loco at a time then only one van is needed. Simple.

So I assumed the socket was the one typically found on LGB which connects to the track, or so I thought.

Does this socket connect to the motor? Even if the DCC decoder is connected?

Is there a way to disconnect the motor from the decoder but still leave a socket connected without getting inside the loco to rewire?

I do understand your intent is to completely bypass the existing decoder and go right to the motor, I just don't understand how it is easy with no mods to the loco internally. Also, if a sound card is fitted, what happens to that? Also if she wants to run it on dcc again?

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Sorry peter, you said:

The only modification to your locos would be to run two wires from the motor to a socket in the back. Then you just couple up the radio van and plug it in when you want to run that loco. The DCC can stay in place in case you want to use it or sell the loco later. If you only aim to run one loco at a time then only one van is needed. Simple.

So I assumed the socket was the one typically found on LGB which connects to the track, or so I thought.

Does this socket connect to the motor? Even if the DCC decoder is connected?

Is there a way to disconnect the motor from the decoder but still leave a socket connected without getting inside the loco to rewire?

I do understand your intent is to completely bypass the existing decoder and go right to the motor, I just don't understand how it is easy with no mods to the loco internally. Also, if a sound card is fitted, what happens to that? Also if she wants to run it on dcc again?

Greg
Click to expand...
In the past there have been mutterings about feeding an LGB Loco from a Battery Van via the rear Lighting Plugs/socket on a Stainz or other Loco. It Should be noted that there are 2 kinds, the older type having 2 plug holes the newer having a slot for a Single plug. I believe that both are for powering Lights in Coaches. The older type on only Analogue Locomotives may be OK but it was the newer one that taxed minds if there was an onboard chip. Possibly even an old modified loco with a chip as it looks like Sarah's problematic Stainz is could have problems.

There is also the issue of allowing a Battery to feed back into rails if using these pluge exclusively. Answer is to separate said plugs put in a DPDT switch so that Battery or Track can be supported then the Plugs become a direct power supply via said switch choice. It may be possible to rewire the onboard LGB switch to do this. BUT you would now have a non standard loco that would need to have a reminder to yourself and others if sold on what had occured.

THREAD DRIFT OFF????
 
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On an unmodified LGB loco, the rear sockets are track-power, so you can indeed feed into these to power a loco..
BUT,
You are also feeding into the track from that loco. - Some people have used this to run a second analogue loco on the same track.

Because you are essentially feeding the track, then any electronics in the loco will see this power source and treat it as an analogue supply.*

*This 'might' cause problems anecdotally for decoder equipped loco's if they get confused by a PWM source.


I personally always connect the rear sockets to track-power if I do a DCC installation.. I know of others, who have used a function output, to allow control of coach lightning or other accessories under DCC control.
 
So, as long winded as I usually am... My reaction was that Peter's suggestion that it was simple was not true and would most likely require mods to the loco wiring and opening up the loco.

This to me is not simple, and I could not imagine it would be simple to Sarah.

So Peter, not trying to combat you, but given these circumstances, your suggestion is not simple in my opinion, and does drive Sarah away from DCC (which is a different issue).

This is all I wanted to say, not track vs. battery or Mylocosound vs. the world.

Regards, Greg

p.s. It is generally bad practice to supply power to the decoder motor outputs.
 
I think it is a great shame that Sarah does not appear to live anywhere close to some of the more knowledgable members of this Forum as I am sure a few minutes actual showing would be a great help to her. I wonder if she has considered membership of a Local Model Railway Club, whilst there may not be many Garden Modellers amongst most clubs there will be plenty who know about DCC.

My friends lady is into Model Railways, she got into it via her Grandson when he was a baby (well before she met my mate). Been a member of a very well known large club for a lot of years now and gets massive help, knowledge via that club plus she also helps running club and private layouts at shows.
 
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