Garden gradient requirements

Chris Wright

Chris Wright

Rev-Up
i understand how gradient percentages work in Z, N, HO but the smaller the scale, the lower the gradient due to less weight bearing down on the track. Now I am building a G scale in the garden with brass track I feel sure that due to the heavy weight of the locos, maybe a slightly steeper slope can be used. So here goes..

The locos are Piko twin motor plus an LGB ICE 3 seven car EMU with drive cars each end so two motors. The lift I require is one foot and I have about 25-30 foot in which to do it. To save me doing this by trial and error vis. buying a 20 foot length of decking plank and laying track on it to test various inclines, has anyone any experience of doing this to inform what these heavy locos can achieve please? The track will essentially be mostly straight with a couple of sections of Piko R5 and R7 in strategic places. The lift itself on the aforementioned distances/height equates to a 4% lift which is wuite steep so will it won't it?
 
While I doubt anyone will be able to give you a 100% guarantee, in general terms most LGB stock should be able to handle 4%, provided it's not got a ludicrously heavy load. I don't have personal experience of the ICE cars but would guess they are not terribly heavy? I have a 3.5% - 4% run up on my (as yet uncompleted) layout, and I've successfully tested an LGB Rugen 0-8-0 (single motor) up this with half a dozen 4-wheel goods wagons.
In the end you may HAVE to do some practical testing if you need to be sure, because there are so many variables involved.....

Jon.
 
I think the answer with any grade is to keep it as shallow as you can, therefore use all the length you have and keep it as straight as possible. In railway terms a 1:25 or 1:30 slope is quite steep, so don't go expecting to haul really heavy loads, but you may be surprised what you can get up it, especially if you can approach at some speed. Any problem will only manifest itself as wheel slip. A light loco will walk it.

My big grade is 15m of 1:40 and I can haul far bigger trains that I have room for up that. Well maintained (lubed) stock also helps.
 
G-force1 said:
I think the answer with any grade is to keep it as shallow as you can, therefore use all the length you have and keep it as straight as possible. In railway terms a 1:25 or 1:30 slope is quite steep, so don't go expecting to haul really heavy loads, but you may be surprised what you can get up it, especially if you can approach at some speed. Any problem will only manifest itself as wheel slip. A light loco will walk it.

My big grade is 15m of 1:40 and I can haul far bigger trains that I have room for up that. Well maintained (lubed) stock also helps.
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Thank you Jon. It gives me confidence for the next step - getting my wife on side.
 
On the WWSR (now lifted due to house move) I had a 2 ft plus drop in the 30 ft length of garden. So I raised the track up at the bottom end, and set it in a slight cutting at the top end. It actually helped to improve the appearance of the garden - searching for piccies :wondering::wondering:

DSCF0001c.JPG DSCF0005d.JPG
 
1 in 30 should work OK.
 
Level, 0%, flat........ trust me.

Lay it flat, and adjust the 'scenery', just like Rhino's done. Works for me.
 
My new line in St.Neots was all set to be max 1:40 Grades. However I managed unintentionally a short bit of 1:30 on a 4ft Rad Curve, my Harz 2-10-2t easily manages 8 LGB Metal Fitted Bogie Coaches up that. My Jack even managed 3 LGB Pullmans up it at Christmas.

Just a thought though, you do not say why you need a foot raise in your 25 or so feet. If it is to cross another Track you could gain an inch or 4 with careful work and THIN top board where the other one goes under, say a Short Length of Ally Sheet. This could be disguised with a Top Girder Type Bridge.
JonD
 
Well, those who have visited my layout (Beaver Creek Railorad) have realised that when I say that I have a maximum 10% (approx 1 in 10) incline on my layout, I am not exaggerating.
An in depth explanation for why I have this incline is probably too long and boring to go into here.... but does it work? ......

Well, yes it does.... provided that the locos have power and weight and that if I want to run longer trains I multiple head or use 'secretly' motorised freight or passenger cars to add a little umph into the proceedings.
It is never the going up that is the real problem with heavy inclines, it is the coming down, as the weight of the rolling stock behind the loco puts interesting strains on couplings and bogies let alone trying to push the loco faster.
I have found all the ways to deal with a steep incline and can have an enjoyable time watching my trains 'simulate' the almost prototypical conditions on the real Rio Grande railroad.
With DC analogue, or battery, a certain degree of 'driving' is necessary (especially with steam locos but diesels do behave much better) but with DCC the back-EMF function of the decoder can mean that a train keeps more or less constant speed whether on the flat, on the incline or down hill.

It is always interesting when visitors bring their own locos to see how they, and their locos, react to running on the layout.
 
G-force1 said:
Yeahbut! Flat isn't prototypical. :shake::shake::shake::p
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Quite correct, but apart from some well recorded locations, most railways were flatish - largely because of the power to weight constraint (allied to the small matter of braking).

That's why the French TGV lines are built like Roman roads - dead straight but with significant inclines - the grades don't matter so much because the power to weight ratio remains constant and all wheels are braked.

I built the WWSR as flat as I could because, up until then, my only experience of garden railways was a Mamod set which, if you had even a 1:25 million hill, would stall.

The Wild West Norfolk Route will have some gentle gradients, but I am working hard to make sure that they are as easy as possible :rock::rock::rock::rock:
 
Hearing about Beevers 1:10 Gradient prompted me to do a little quick research and from The Wiki List I will give 4 exmples, but look at the Wiki List and see how many of the seriously steep ones are Rack or Fell assisted. Plus some originally being Cable Assisted. Now there would be an interesting idea for a Fun Line a Cable Assisted Incline complete with Staem Powered Engine House! I also concur with serious problems using LGB Couplings on Steep Inclines as we found out on Sndy Rush's Rack Railway with a Gradient of around 1:10.
Examples:-

1:11 Roaring Camp USA. Predominantly Operated by Shay or other Geared Bogie Locomotives.
1:15 Rimutaka Incline NZ Fell Assisted
1:30 Folkestone Harbour UK Adhesion
1:37 Likey Incline UK Adhesion
Both the above UK examples had severe Operating Costs in cases using up to 4 Locomotives to lift the Trains up the Ramps. No doubt much fun on a Model Railway but will take a serious toll on the life length of any Models involed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_steepest_gradients_on_adhesion_railways

JonD
 
dunnyrail said:
Hearing about Beevers 1:10 Gradient prompted me to do a little quick research and from The Wiki List I will give 4 exmples, but look at the Wiki List and see how many of the seriously steep ones are Rack or Fell assisted. Plus some originally being Cable Assisted. Now there would be an interesting idea for a Fun Line a Cable Assisted Incline complete with Staem Powered Engine House! I also concur with serious problems using LGB Couplings on Steep Inclines as we found out on Sndy Rush's Rack Railway with a Gradient of around 1:10.
Examples:-

1:11 Roaring Camp USA. Predominantly Operated by Shay or other Geared Bogie Locomotives.
1:15 Rimutaka Incline NZ Fell Assisted
1:30 Folkestone Harbour UK Adhesion
1:37 Likey Incline UK Adhesion
Both the above UK examples had severe Operating Costs in cases using up to 4 Locomotives to lift the Trains up the Ramps. No doubt much fun on a Model Railway but will take a serious toll on the life length of any Models involed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_steepest_gradients_on_adhesion_railways

JonD
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Yes, Folkestone Harbour used up to three locos - but they were small R1 Class 0-6-0s because of the tight curves and weight limits.
The Lickey incline had Big Bertha - a single 0-10-0 designed as a banker.

The Canadian Pacific originally had a stupidly steep gradient on one side of the Rockies, that was so dangerously impractical that they eventually commissioned a Swiss engineer to construct a couple of spiral tunnels - the Rocky Mountaineer is now the only passenger train to run through the spirals :nod::nod::nod:
 
I believe that the Harz network (HSB) in Germany - which I suspect 90%+ of those on here will be very familiar with, but there may be one or two who don't know much about it - has significant stretches of 1:30, especially on the run up to the summit of the Brocken, and occasional bits as steep as 1:25..... all worked adhesion-only, a year-round service including in the snow and ice of the mountain winter, although you do see many photos of their big 2-10-2 tanks double-heading the Brocken trains....

Jon.
 
What's the problem with LGB Couplings on steep inclines?

I've had problems with them uncoupling for no apparent reason, I just used a triangular file to make the hook a little deeper
 
Frank Gallagher said:
What's the problem with LGB Couplings on steep inclines?

I've had problems with them uncoupling for no apparent reason, I just used a triangular file to make the hook a little deeper
Click to expand...
Do you double hook, i.e. hooks on both loops, as I do....
 
In terms of "real world" adhesion inclines the standard gauge Black Hills railway in South Dakota has some 6% grades or about 1:16 and those are on pretty sharp curves. They have a 2-6-6-2T oil-fired Mallet to pull 7 fully loaded bogie passenger cars up at about walking speed in places.
 
We found that the Loops overode each other causing derailments from Buffer Locking on the Sharp Curves. As we only use the Loop on Locomotives with no Hook this was also problamatic between Loco and First Vehicle. Of course with the Rack we Propelled Uphill and ran Reverse Downhill. The problem could occur either way. The problem was partially solved by restricting Loads to a Coach and no more than 2 Shorty Toy Train Wagons. Suitably repainted and lettered of course less anyone think we played Trains on the Ruschbahn.

I think that Beaver may be aluding to somewhat similar problems in Post #11, though he may of course be using other than LGB Standard Couplings.
JonD
 
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