High CV values on Z21

idlemarvel said:
So Greg if I understand this correctly, for a more specific example, to program CV 902 (volume) to 255 (max volume) you would have to set:

CV 65 to 3 (because 3*64+63=255)
CV 66 to 14 (because 14*64+6=902)
CV 6 to 63 (because 6 and 63 are the remainders of the calculations above)

I guess your handset has to be in page register mode or some such?

I'll try this on my Lenz when I get a chance.
Click to expand...
Hi Dave,
Should the contents of CV65 not be multiplied by 4 as per the example above, meaning it is set to 63. (63*4)+3=255.
Not had a chance to try this yet.

cheers
Tom
 
You are correct Tom it should be as you say. Corrected version below. In order to set CV 902 to 255 set:
[value] CV 65 to 63 (because 63*4+3=255)
[address] CV 66 to 14 (because 14*64+6=902)
CV 6 to 3 (because 6 and 3 are the remainders of the calculations above)
I hope this is right. Mind-boggling.
 
This did not work for me.

Loco has Massoth XL decoder with "PIKO" (Uhlenbrock) IS3 sound module attached via SUSI.
Command station is Lenz LZV100 with LH100 hand set.

All the above procedure did was set CV6 to 3 which is Massoth mid-speed setting.
Either I am doing something wrong or this procedure is specifically for the Marklin station.

With my Lenz with some perseverance I can set high CVs like 902 using standard programming procedures.

Cliff George is a big user of these Uhlenbrock sound modules. If you're out there any advice for us Cliff?
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Where is CV 6 mentioned as the remainder in the manual?

I surely do not see it.

The remainder is the number you put to the CV value...

Greg
Click to expand...

I was (sort-of) trying to work-out how it 'knew' the final value.. The remainder had to go somewhere?
 
This seems a little 'blind-faith' CV programming? - How do you read-back one of these high CV's? - I like to know what value a CV is before I alter it.
That way, if I get things wrong, I can put it back how it was.

This method seems to be to write a CV, with no record of what the preceding value was, or a way to get it back?? :eek::think:
 
I screwed up and meant to edit my post, the calculations in post #22 seem right, I was come back and edit my post #24, but just got called away from my desk..

Yeah, looks like reading is not possible with the indexing scheme... in the QSI decoders they have a CV that will read back an indexed value, aloud through the speaker...

So you can do readback with programming on the main, and anywhere in the layout you can hear your loco...

Greg
 
Something seems amiss with the formula, you multiply CV65's contents by 64, but the remainder can be from 1 to 64.... that gives you the possibility of 2 different ways to enter some higher CV's, normally the formula would make it so there is only one unique formula for a particular number...

I need to look at this a bit, but it would seem that your remainder (the actual cv number set) should be 1 to 63, but hmm...

if there were no restriction for CV's over 79 then here is an example of duplicates:
CV 66 = 1, CV 1 is setting register... so you are setting CV 65...
CV 66 = 0, CV 65 is setting register, so you are setting CV 65 again...

But try this example: so for a higher CV... like CV 129...
CV 66 = 2, CV 1 is setting register, so you are setting 64 * 2 + 1 = 129
CV 66 = 1, CV 64 is setting register, so you are setting 64 + 65 = 129

When I see 2 paths to the same answer, I think there may be a flaw in the formula....

Another thought is that perhaps even though the formula for the CV number says you can use registers 1 through 64, my guess is that registers at least up to 6 are "reserved"..

So to get to CV 902, maybe program cv66 to 13 and the remainder is 70? ok that does not work with the rule you cannot use a "remainder" over 64... so much for that idea.. but it's weird since you can program registers up to 79 without this trick...

so why not try this:
CV66 = 13
CV65 = 63
CV 70 = 3 (70 + 13 * 64 = CV 902) (3 + 63 * 4 = value 255)

may be worth a try... clearly in what happened, CV6 was indeed changed and if CV66 was nonzero, that should not have happened)

I'll look more, we cannot be the only people who have looked into this.
 
Surely, programming of the high CVs over the SUSI bus is dependant upon the driving decoder!

If the driving decoder has a SUSI bus then it must pass the CV read/write functions for CVs 897-1024 over the bus. Responses from these commands would then be returned by the driving decoder.

Have we determined who actually makes the driving decoder? If so does it support the page/register options for setting high CVs that you are all trying to compute? Or are you heading along the wrong garden path?
 
Yes muns muns it depends on the decoder to which it is attached, which in this case is a PIKO 36122 (rebadged Massoth XL), see post #1. The sound module is a PIKO 36222 (rebadged Uhlenbrock IS3). You're right that we could be going down the wrong garden path though.

I'm becoming convinced these strange instructions only apply to the specific Marklin command station referred to in the documentation. My reasoning is that something has to be doing the calculations to work out the real CV and value you are trying to program. It can't be the (motor) decoder as CV 65 and CV 66 are already used by Massoth for other purposes, and the sound decoder only gets what the motor decoder passes to it over the SUSI interface, so it must be the command station.

In theory my Lenz command station can program high CVs in the range 897-1024 using "normal" CV reading and writing but in practice it works very intermittently with a Massoth/Uhlenbrock combo. I am guessing that is because there are two manufacturer's interpretations of how the SUSI interface works when it comes to programming. I never had a problem when I had a Massoth XL and a Massoth S connected via SUSI.

Maybe the OP can ask PIKO for some help as they are providing both (rebadged) components?
 
Bingo, that was the key, as per the manual:

"As long as the sound module is connected to an Uhlenbrock decoder all CV's can be programmed with a Märklin center, but not read."

So I would guess on Uhlenbrock decoders, CV 65 and CV 66 work on the motor decoder and pass through to the SUSI...

As intelligently pointed out, a different motor decoder that uses CV65 and CV66 for anything else other than offset registers could never pass the data through, how would it know?

Greg
 
So with this combination - who supplied it like this? - to use a technical phrase:
"If you want to change anything.. You're b*gg*red!"
:banghead::banghead::mad::mad:
:rolleyes:
 
Re-reading post #1, both decoders have a Piko part number, so seems Piko is at fault.

What a mess, although perhaps the Piko system will address the high numbers and the motor decoder will pass them through.

The famous "works for me, what's your problem?" situation.

Yes not a good reflection on Piko.

Greg
 
My guess:
Piko will do a 'programming module' of some description..
I would think, no problem if using that??
 
Doesn't the stock Piko DCC system have the ability to program? Maybe not the high CV's, and can't you add a Massoth navigator to it?

Personally, offering something for sale, but not giving your customers the ability to customize it (and DCC is attractive in that it is indeed customizable) is not a great situation.

But, it is an entry level system...

Greg
 
Yes, you can change CV's with the Piko system.. - I don't know how high you can go though..
Yes, you can use a Navigator 'throttle' with the Piko CS. - It does not give you more than the CS can provide, obviously.

What you can't do with a Piko system, is upgrade the software in the CS or throttle yourself.
 
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