LGB Mogul....drooping pilot

[Brixham]

I acquired a rather tired LGB mogul last year...it's in very good condition, apart from it barely moved under power ( sorted by some lubrication ), and when running, frequently derails because the pilot is drooping and catching on the track, especially at gradient changes. I've seen this defect on another loco.

The plastic frame appears straight, it's where the red pilot clips onto the frame. Also, the stays from the smokebox appear far too long. I'm proposing to bathe the pilot/frame interface in very hot water, and apply some pressure to the pilot to correct the angle. I'll also be making a new pair of stays from brass rod.

Anyone else had this issue?

Malcolm

 

[Brixham]

and here's the pic

 

[beavercreek]

A drooping pilot.....there must be a pill for that

As to the loco pilot. I think that your idea of heating the plastic is a good one. The stays are the correct length and they should have holes to go into on the pilot itself which, if superglued, would help to keep the pilot straight.

 

[Gizzy]

Looks like one of those brass stays isn't in place?

Maybe a drop of supagloo and pushing in the stay as far as it will go will sort out this problem....

 

[Brixham]

The loco came to me 2nd hand ?( at least 2nd hand..maybe more ). Even forcing the pilot into the correct attitude, the stays are too long. In fact, it makes the problem worse. Whether a previous owner has mixed parts from several models...

I'm not a fan of superglue, I use it only when nothing else will do. Much prefer slow set epoxy. I'll still make new stays, but make them so that the pilot is under tension when in the correct attitude, and are self retaining. Just off to my local modelshop to look through their brass rod selection. If they don't have any..there's always Modeldrone a bit further into town. Can't be too harsh on MZ, as they did, and still do have some of the Thomas G in their sale.

Malcolm

 

[ntpntpntp]

Some of the DIY stores stock a few sizes of brass, steel and aluminium rod and angle etc. My local Homebase does, and it often saves me having to go further afield to a "real" model shop.

 

[Brixham]

Distances:
work to modelshop....400 yards
work to MZ...700 yards
work to B&Q...1760 yards!

Spoilt for choice really

 

[beavercreek]

I think that you maybe right in your assumption Malcolm, that the pilot is from another loco as the little turn down on the stays locates into holes o the pilot. A previous owner probably has 'adjusted' something
here is a picture of how it should be

 

[stevedenver]

1 have you examined the chassis-are there any breaks or cracks- i suspect a hairline crack -easy enough to do with the front end of the loco
2 you need to be very judicious in heating and bending-because the chassis and the piklot support are a single piece and if you break it-its a bit of reconstruction
3 i have a very old 2018 which had the same issue-the portion onto which the pilot screws was cracked -ie the platform with the brake wheel stand-
i repaired it by leveling it , using 2 nice strong hollow squares of brass 'tubing' and epoxied -this has lasted decades- i suspect a couple of good stout steel wire lengths buried in epxoy would also do beautifully-the alternative to repairing the crack-if any-is an entire new chassis section-which is why i did the fix -as even years and years ago -these were relatively hard to come by-short of a new chassis mogul assembly
4 from the photo, it seems that if you were to simply insert the brass stays into the pilot it would be properly lifted, but you say this isnt working- i too agree that this is probably the bset thing to try and tweak-changing the length or angle or both of the satys and or the bends in them
-i too would think that a bit of adhesive in the holes would help-if you dont like ACC (which I dont either) you could consider either a good contact cement-or a tiny shim-like a bit of tape or paper wedged into the hole for extra purchase
5 if everything is in tact, no cracks etc, and the piece itself droops, you might consider a couple of stout splints (as i used)-something that runs into the chassis as far toward the smoke box as you can and out onto the pilot platform and the end bit where the pilot screws for added support-they are invisible from everywhere but the underside, and dont interfere in any way with funcition
-i dont think you are going to have any luck using hot water-but i might be wrong-it seems the old LGB Luran was very difficult to get to change in any way from its original shape, or once it assumed a new shape-its not like styrene-and the few times ive tried to use really hot water, disaster looms-sometimes really hot (boiling) water can cause plastics to shrink or shrivel or curl wildly

 

[Tim Brien]

Malcolm,
remove the two small screws that mount the cowcatcher. Lift away the cowcatcher and check the two mount lugs on the frame. Quite likely these have been broken/cracked due mishandling/running into something.

If lugs are cracked then take a small soldering iron and heat weld along the crack lines to attempt a repair. You may need a repair along the lines of that which Steve has suggested.

When repaired, slip the two brass stayrods into their corresponding holes on the pilot beam and then lower the cowcatcher down onto the underframe mount lugs. Reinstall the mount screws. Alas, this is one of the Moguls manufacturing weak spots and always prone to failure if not looked after.

 

[funandtrains]

The pilot on these models often breaks along the joint and that is what appears to have happened to your loco. It is normally the main chassis that breaks, rather a week design by LGB. Warenburg has spare chassis moldings on ebay.de at the moment.

 

[Brixham]

Thanks for your helpfull hints....I've removed the pilot and the front pony truck.

The cause of the problem is obvious, the pilot mounting bracket extension of the frame is drooping, looking underneath there's quite a crack.
Another visit to the model shop has resulted in some brass section being acquired, this will be fashioned into a central support. I'm also proposing to make two L shaped pieces, to fit either side underneath the 'chequer plate' top surface, which will have screw holes at the ends to more firmly attach the pilot.

 

[beavercreek]

Hi Malcolm
It is good that you have found the cause. On the problem of the stays, are there holes drilled on the cowcatcher part of the pilot for the stays? They should be able to slot into the holes and they will also give a little more bracing for support. The ones in the picture that I posted look very similar to the ones on your loco.

 

[Brixham]

Hi Beavercreek...
My loco is a 2028D....basically like yours but in gunmetal blue instead of red. In fact, in your picture the pilot appears to be drooping too!
The pilot on my loco does have the holes for the stays.
I've looked at the clearances for the front pony truck, there seems to be plenty, but I'm erring on the side of caution on the thickness of the bracing piece.

Malcolm

 

[beavercreek]

Hi Beavercreek...
My loco is a 2028D....basically like yours but in gunmetal blue instead of red. In fact, in your picture the pilot appears to be drooping too!
The pilot on my loco does have the holes for the stays.
I've looked at the clearances for the front pony truck, there seems to be plenty, but I'm erring on the side of caution on the thickness of the bracing piece.

Malcolm

Yes it does seem to be drooping as well. It is not mine one but a photo from the web.

 

[stevedenver]

ah ha....
looks familiar.....

well in my book, LGB and glue generally arent pukka, but
i did find this to work surprisingly well-but it will have that unfinished gob of glue look to the underside-cant be helped

1 get everything into the proper plane and keep it there -it might need a small plastic model clamp with nominal pressure to keep things aligned-might even need a splint ON THE TOP to act as a guide and pressure plate-cover it with something like saran wrap or something in case the glue spills-to avoid it being glued
in looking at your break, you might want to build a step -ie have a strip on the larger flat pilot section , which would raise the plane level with the broken section so that you can then have a piece or two extend right into the portion with the break -so the reinforcement strips dont have to bend or climb up into the cracked area -this will give a lot more strength and hopefully avoid futre sagging

2 find some nice stiff wire, or as i used either stiff very flat square tubing, or
nice thick stiff brass strips, or steel -i think these should be as long as you can fit for the greatest adhesion area and also reinforcement
rough up the underside of the plastic for best adhesion and the metal as well (corse file )

put the loco upside down in a cradel with the pony and pilot removed
make a pool of strong slow drying 2 part epoxy -sitck the metal on with soem of the epoxy
and basically submerge the metal in a covering of epoxy-again this adds to the overall reinforcement --make sure it covers the areas needing support and bracing if possible, leave clearance for the screws-and be judicious-enough to cover , not so much that it flows out -you might need 2 applications
let it dry for term
for strength and then if need be re-apply anohter layer
should be good for several decades!

 

[Brixham]

I bought some brass strip, and cut to size a reinforcing plate, and formed a joggle at one end to accomodate the moulding rib underneath the front beam of the loco.
The front beam has a moulding along the front face, I decided rather than cut a 'chord' out of the plate, I would slot the moulding to accept the plate, which would make it stronger...
I used a minidrill with a grinding wheel for this.

However...

Disaster!!!! whilst attempting to bend the warmed deformed pilot mount back to the correct angle....
It broke off!

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[Brixham]

I was able to temporarily fix the broken piece back on with use of the soldering iron, and plugged the slot at the front with blue tack. Warming the slow set epoxy resin glue on a radiator before mixing makes it nice and runny, and the brass was also warmed. The plastic frame was scratched to improve adhesion, as was the brass plate. It also had notches filed along 3 sides for the same reason.

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[/size]


Apply the glue, insert the plate, add some more glue, leave horizontal...and wait. Actually the glue is hard after a couple of hours, but full strength isn't achieved for 24 hours.

 

[Brixham]

Glue is hard?and has set nice and smooth. I don?t know whether to leave it as it is, so any defects can be spotted, or paint it black. As it?s underneath and out of sight, I think I?ll leave it. If I was running the loco outside on a daily basis in bright sunshine, then to stop the ultra violet rays affecting the epoxy, I would.

Reassembling the loco, and it looks great. The pilot is really rigid, and at the correct angle. On level track, there won't be any problems. Uneven track could be a problem, as the front wheels only have a couple of mm vertical movement before the moulded springs on the pony truck touch the underneath of the frame...now of course thicker with the plate and glue. See the difference between repaired and new. Mind the Gap!

Reducing or removing the springs would be the answer...but I want to track test before doing this. In normal use, the springs are invisible anyway.
And the brass stay rods are still the wrong length. I?ll be making a new pair.

Malcolm

 

[Tim Brien]

Malcolm,
LGB only made two different length stayrods. The longer ones as you have were used on the woodburners and the shorter length stays on the coal burners (they had an extended smokebox moulding).

As stated in my original posting, quote: " When repaired, slip the two brass stayrods into their corresponding holes on the pilot beam and then lower the cowcatcher down onto the underframe mount lugs. Reinstall the mount screws."

If you install the cowcatcher first and then attempt to install the stayrods then they will appear too long. You need to insert each aft end of the stayrods at the smokebox. Then insert the forward end into the cowcatcher moulding and then swing down onto the underframe moulding. Then insert the mount screws.

If the rods are genuine LGB parts then they are correct for your install.