LGB Tram Car Protocol

James Day

James Day

Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
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For some years I have owned a couple of LGB Tram cars, each one has a trailer. I have recently added a third pair.

It would seem that the tram cars should be correctly operated by hauling the trailer behind the motor car and then running around it at the termini. I note that the trailer has no imitation throttle or resistance bank, just a brake.

I have to confess to completely breaking those rules and have always operated my tram and trailer sets on various automated shuttle operations. On the bright side the trailer is being hauled 50% of the time!

Until I learn how to reliably automate the uncoupling and running around at each end, I am thinking of fitting a white light on the balcony at one end of my two open cab trailers and eventually the closed cab unit too. This would operate only when the trailer is being propelled. They already have a red trailing light that comes on when they are being hauled.

My logic is that if a white light is showing the 'guilt of propelling' would be at least partly assuaged and it would look better too. I have in mind chosing some suitable LGB loco headlamps from what is available at Modell-Land.de and mounting one on the outer balcony.

Has anyone else had this dilemma or tried to find a solution to the lack of a white light when propelling?

James
 
James Day said:
For some years I have owned a couple of LGB Tram cars, each one has a trailer. I have recently added a third pair.

It would seem that the tram cars should be correctly operated by hauling the trailer behind the motor car and then running around it at the termini. I note that the trailer has no imitation throttle or resistance bank, just a brake.

I have to confess to completely breaking those rules and have always operated my tram and trailer sets on various automated shuttle operations. On the bright side the trailer is being hauled 50% of the time!

Until I learn how to reliably automate the uncoupling and running around at each end, I am thinking of fitting a white light on the balcony at one end of my two open cab trailers and eventually the closed cab unit too. This would operate only when the trailer is being propelled. They already have a red trailing light that comes on when they are being hauled.

My logic is that if a white light is showing the 'guilt of propelling' would be at least partly assuaged and it would look better too. I have in mind chosing some suitable LGB loco headlamps from what is available at Modell-Land.de and mounting one on the outer balcony.

Has anyone else had this dilemma or tried to find a solution to the lack of a white light when propelling?

James
Click to expand...
My solution with both my open and closed cab pairs was to switch one of the headlight-containing ends to the trailer. Thus you have a pair of symmetrical one-ended trams that look great on a back-and-forth route. Other than having to live with a theoretically one-directional power car, the only caveat I found was the necessity to add an additional connector to energize the tail light (or, I suspect, a more direct tampering with the circuit board might have accomplished this).
 
LVT said:
My solution with both my open and closed cab pairs was to switch one of the headlight-containing ends to the trailer..
Click to expand...


Arthur,


That is a very neat solution indeed and one that I had half considered. Sadly my trams are too old - (between 27 and 30 years or so) for me to follow my preferred version of your solution. I would have liked to have ordered some spare lit balcony ends from LGB to rebuild them much as you suggest. The idea behind this was to create a proper driving trailer but keep the main tram as supplied.


In the eighties, nineties and even the early 2000s leading up to the insolvency, Lehamann would have supplied these, as they supplied just about anything you wanted, if they had it available. Sadly none of my colour schemes have been in production for some years, and Marklin don't even reply to spares requests, so I missed my chance!


In relation to the wiring, your third cable should not be necessary, as the power coming through the twin umbilical between the cars should be line voltage, to power the the internal lights.


The front and rear lights can be taken from this supply using two diodes at each end: one to ensure the tail light only comes on as the trailer is drawn away and the other the opposite way round to allow the headlight to be lit only as the tram comes towards you.


This arrangement should work if the tram is being powered either from the track, or the overhead line, as despite the different sources of power, the polarity required to move in the same direction is unchanged.


Thanks again,

James
 
To be 100% prototypical a tram would not push a trailer very far as the driver could not see where he was going. The old fashioned LGB type trams could only be controlled from the control boxes on the platforms which were directly wired to the motors. These trams were in use before multiple control came about. The driver moved his control handle which directly operated the contacts inside the control box. There was no way these old trams could be driven from the trailer.
If you wish to tow something it has to be another tram, or a tram each end of a trailer.

However it's your railway, nothing to stop you using modellers licence & running it however you like.
 
dutchelm said:
To be 100% prototypical a tram would not push a trailer very far as the driver could not see where he was going. The old fashioned LGB type trams could only be controlled from the control boxes on the platforms which were directly wired to the motors. These trams were in use before multiple control came about. The driver moved his control handle which directly operated the contacts inside the control box. There was no way these old trams could be driven from the trailer.
If you wish to tow something it has to be another tram, or a tram each end of a trailer.

However it's your railway, nothing to stop you using modellers licence & running it however you like.
Click to expand...

Mike,

I like that answer too. Maybe my 'preserved' trams have been retro-fitted with multiple control, OR maybe the auxilary motorman riding on the forward platform of the trailer has 'push-pull' type control, smilar to that used in those Royal Mail Propelling Control Vehicles (PCVs) in the 1990s?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propelling_Control_Vehicle.

James
 
Hi James, here in Germany someone did it on this way. He took one front panel from the tram car and put onto the trailer. So he changed the panel from trailer to the driving unit.

Here you can see a smal report (in German) with a picture.
http://michelswunderland.de/lgb/arc_dec2009.html

Peter
 
You could always run it like the Indian Hill Railway where the guard hangs out of the back of the train with red & green flags when propelling
 
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hamburg-saenfte.jpg
Just an other old idea I had once.
 
If you had room (and DCC) you could put in a reversing Wye or a turning loop as per prototypical practise?
 
I have watched the trams arriving in Puerto Soller from Soller, Mallorca, many times. The tram always uses a run-around loop to get to the head of the trailer for the return journey. In the above scene, obviously in the main tourist season, there are three or four tram 'trains' queued up and waiting on the same line. I have no idea how they sorted out that lot for the return trip. I can only assume that the 'first in' tram coupled up to the 'last in' trailers. Photograph was taken 25.9.2007

dig 070925027.JPG

David
 
Yes 'run round' is also prototypical. Many systems had this practise (and some still do).
 
I believe the Soller trams now run in a multiple formation of Tram +2 Trailers + Tram from a recent video I saw. I guess that they are through wired to be able to do this.

As well as resolving capacity at peak times, this also solves the issues of running round at the termini....
 
In Sydney and Adelaide they extended the life of some of their older four wheel trams by coupling them together semi permanently in a two car set. The driving controls in the middle two cabs were removed, and both cars rewired to be controlled from the cabs at each end. I don't think it was multiple unit as such, more a complete rewiring to make the two cars function as a single four motor car would. In both cities they only used trolley poles at the time, but if they did use pantographs like the LGB tram they probably would have retained the pantograph on one car only. So there's certainly a precedent for running a coupled set of small four wheel trams without running around.
 
trammayo said:
If you had room (and DCC) you could put in a reversing Wye or a turning loop as per prototypical practise?
Click to expand...


Guys,

These suggestions are great! Thanks to everyone for all the very informative replies and the picture.

Peter,

That is a nice link. It looks like Arthur's solution and is very much what I would have done if I could have got some suitable spare motor car ends. I like your articulated illustration idea too!

Mick,

The reversing Wye is a brilliant idea and does not need DCC to work. I have made them before using the LGB reverse loop sets, but have never automated one - yet!

However, having thought it through, it would be very easy to do with an EPL drive, an LGB Timer, some reeds and some spring activated points. Sadly I only have room to install one at the far end of the line, but I am very tempted to make a temporary one, just for the fun of it and seeing it work!

A great suggestion! Thanks again,

James
 
James Day said:
Guys,

These suggestions are great! Thanks to everyone for all the very informative replies and the picture.

Peter,

That is a nice link. It looks like Arthur's solution and is very much what I would have done if I could have got some suitable spare motor car ends. I like your articulated illustration idea too!

Mick,

The reversing Wye is a brilliant idea and does not need DCC to work. I have made them before using the LGB reverse loop sets, but have never automated one - yet!

However, having thought it through, it would be very easy to do with an EPL drive, an LGB Timer, some reeds and some spring activated points. Sadly I only have room to install one at the far end of the line, but I am very tempted to make a temporary one, just for the fun of it and seeing it work!

A great suggestion! Thanks again,

James
Click to expand...
My earlier response explained what I did 33 years ago when my yellow and my red tram pairs were new and my fear of LGB electronics was absolute. The trams ( and I) have moved beyond a simple back'n forth in the spare bedroom to an outdoor single line with double reversing loops. Interim modification of the trailers was the installation of metal wheels w/pick-up brushes. As of now one trailer has been motorized, and its one direction format fits the reverse loop operation well.

As to the reverse loops, I use a Dallee (dallee.com) [HASHTAG]#566[/HASHTAG] DTRL current sensing controller which, with judicious use of insulating joiners and diodes, makes it possible to run one unit seamlessly automatically over the whole line. Or, through optional stopping sections, I can run two or three units with one entering a loop and automatically releasing another. Having tried magnets and reeds, I never got the degree of reliability that I get with the current-sensing equipment. The greatest feature of the DTRL is that it guards against false signals by demanding that the opposing loop sensors be triggered in sequence. Reliability is further enhanced by simply using the LGB spring turnout feature.

Needless to say, this is strictly analogue, and I lean heavily toward rugged decades-old LGB motive power.
 
LVT said:
As to the reverse loops, I use a Dallee (dallee.com) [HASHTAG]#566[/HASHTAG] DTRL current sensing controller which, with judicious use of insulating joiners and diodes, makes it possible to run one unit seamlessly automatically over the whole line. Or, through optional stopping sections, I can run two or three units with one entering a loop and automatically releasing another. Having tried magnets and reeds, I never got the degree of reliability that I get with the current-sensing equipment. The greatest feature of the DTRL is that it guards against false signals by demanding that the opposing loop sensors be triggered in sequence. Reliability is further enhanced by simply using the LGB spring turnout feature.

Needless to say, this is strictly analogue, and I lean heavily toward rugged decades-old LGB motive power.
Click to expand...

Hello Arthur,

I too am strictly analogue, but am fascinated by your current sensing electronics.

I have some auto reverse modules that are current sensing and they work pretty well too, but as an add-on they allow trains to switch over at each end, so a four ended branch can have three trams or trains running between all four end of the line in turn. This feature combines reeds and EPL drives with the current sensing. I have not had any real issues with the EPL system, although the modern LGB 17100 Reed is frankly awful and prone to more failures than the old LGB ones, whilst the PIKO version is much more solid. The EPL booster helped too.

I have also fitted metal wheels on my tram trailers, but have not gone any further as I don't have any issue with thier solid current collecting abilities. I also often use them all on my other branch where one is powered from the overhead line. They have 'train describing' magnets hidden inside the skirts that trigger trackside home made reeds on this branch. These allow the system to know which tram is where. allowing a track and overhead powered tram to both shuttle up and down, passing in a central loop (with spring points) and cross my 'main line', interacting with the block signalling on that.

All great fun to watch, and as you say, more than just a straight up and down!.

See the thread 'Catenary That Works Again'.

James
 
James Day said:
Peter,

That is a nice link. It looks like Arthur's solution and is very much what I would have done if I could have got some suitable spare motor car ends. I like your articulated illustration idea too!
Click to expand...

You can get them from champex-linden.de - 6,95 Euro each or from model-land.de in blue - 8,99 Euro each They do have the electronic board for the lights with it.

I don't know witch colour comes from champex linden, but I do have 3 new ones in yellow and one what was painted in creme. The creme colour is removed from the outside by me.inside you can see partly the paint. An offer can be, to order them from those shops. If they are not in the right colour we can swap it. For me it doesn't matter. For my new projects with my spare part trams I will paint them.

Peter
 
schienenkönig said:
You can get them from champex-linden.de - 6,95 Euro each or from model-land.de in blue - 8,99 Euro each They do have the electronic board for the lights with it.

I don't know witch colour comes from champex linden, but I do have 3 new ones in yellow and one what was painted in creme. The creme colour is removed from the outside by me.inside you can see partly the paint. An offer can be, to order them from those shops. If they are not in the right colour we can swap it. For me it doesn't matter. For my new projects with my spare part trams I will paint them.

Peter
Click to expand...

Peter,

Thank you this is also very helpful. Following your tip, I can see the front peice on the Modell-Land site, but really struggle with finding anything beyond the standard items on the Champex-Linden site. My German is limited, but their 'English'
option button does not go far enough to help!

A single yellow tram cab front is just what I am after, so if you have one and are willing to sell it, or can point me to one, please PM me!

My other trams are the red 2036 and the 1988 LGB 20th Anniversary. Cab fronts for these will be hard to source and match, but luckily they both have open cabs so will suit my original headlamp idea without spoiling them.

James
 
Even for me it was not easy to find the order form, But here is a link to the English order form.
https://www.champex-linden.de/cl_ko_ersatzteilbestellung_e.htm

What you have to do is easy. Find the LGB part number, you get it by using the pdf file, by catalogue number of the roiling stock. It is not all available all Lgb locos or cars.

For example the yellow tram cab front has the number 2035 part 23. Put in the form the number of how many you want an than the loco number (2035) and than the part number (23).

It shows than the German description and the single price and the total price,. If the total is under the minimum order value of EUR 20.00 than they charge 5,00 € extra.

Link to the pdf files with the different drawing and part numbers. for models up to 2007
https://www.champex-linden.de/cl_pi_lgb.htm

Link to the pdf files with the different drwaring and part numbers. for models 2007 - January 2015
https://www.champex-linden.de/cl_pi_lgb.htm#Anker5-0

Hope it helps a little bit to undertand order form for their parts service.
If not, feel free to ask me.

@ James a PM is following a bit later.

Peter
 

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