Reverse loop and triangle wiring.

Ollyman66

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Hello,

I’m currently building a DCC LGB track layout including a reverse loop and triangle junction.
What bits and bobs do l need to fit to the circuit to keep engines running smoothly?
I understand that a 55085 reverse loop module will be needed but don’t know how the triangle junction is wired.

Does anyone have a 55085 loop module for-sale?
I’m using an MTS controller

Regards

Oliver.
 
Hello,

I’m currently building a DCC LGB track layout including a reverse loop and triangle junction.
What bits and bobs do l need to fit to the circuit to keep engines running smoothly?
I understand that a 55085 reverse loop module will be needed but don’t know how the triangle junction is wired.

Does anyone have a 55085 loop module for-sale?
I’m using an MTS controller

Regards

Oliver.
Have a look at this vid which shows how to set up an LGB module for a triangle.

 
Hello,

I’m currently building a DCC LGB track layout including a reverse loop and triangle junction.
What bits and bobs do l need to fit to the circuit to keep engines running smoothly?
I understand that a 55085 reverse loop module will be needed but don’t know how the triangle junction is wired.

Does anyone have a 55085 loop module for-sale?
I’m using an MTS controller

Regards

Oliver.
Hi Oliver. I have just fitted a Massoth reverse loop module (very similar if not same as LGB kit) to produce a reverse 'Y' (3 sets of points) and it works perfectly. All the necessary track connectors, isolators etc come with the kit and extensive wiring instructions for a reverse loop and a 'Y' - all you require is wiring (and necessary track sections of course!)
Regards, Graham.
 
Hi Oliver,

Unfortunately the video linked in Jon's post above shows one of the original, outdated LGB DCC Reverse-Loop Modules and gives no clue how to wire the current 55085 Module that includes sensor track segments. The LGB 55085 Manual shows how to connect the track and sensor wires for a simple wye on page ll. Here is a link to the manual: https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/4c/95/4c95ca844b982d9b2087d5c74d229f1f1612248264.pdf. This setup works fine so long as your longest train will fit in the segment powered by the OUT + and OUT - connections.

A couple of other notes. Do not be confused by the two terminals labelled "POWER". These are only needed to power the module when it is used on an analog powered layout! On a DCC layout, such as your MTS system, the module gets its power from the DCC signal on the track power IN + and IN - terminals. Also, make sure your manual matches what is currently on the Märklin/LGB website. Some of the earlier manuals, such as the one I have, showed improper connections for the Wye.

You need to think about what you are trying to accomplish with the wye in your track plan. Below is what I have done with both my first iteration in pic 1 and my current setup, pic 2. Both will work perfectly. I set mine up this way because the segment of track that is switched by the reverse-loop module needed to be much longer for the length of trains I run. In both pics the In +, In -, Out +, Out -, Sensor 1, Sensor 2, Sensor 3, and Sensor 4 refer to the connections on the reverse-loop module.

The left hand leg of the wye in pic 1 dead-ends. I can pull a train into the dead-end from either direction and reverse out of the wye on the opposite leg to turn the train around

Wye 1 - 1.jpeg

Pic 2 shows my current setup. The left hand leg now loops around as the main-line. Sensors 1' and 2' piggy-back on sensors 1 and 2 respectively.

Wye 2 - 1.jpeg
 
Hello Graham,

Thanks very much for the information
Hi Oliver. I have just fitted a Massoth reverse loop module (very similar if not same as LGB kit) to produce a reverse 'Y' (3 sets of points) and it works perfectly. All the necessary track connectors, isolators etc come with the kit and extensive wiring instructions for a reverse loop and a 'Y' - all you require is wiring (and necessary track sections of course!)
Regards, Graham.
Hello Graham,
Thanks very much for the information.
Will l need two of these Massoth loop modules?
One for the reverse loop and one for the 3 sets of points at the end of the reverse loop?

What is the code number for this kit and will it work well with the LGB controller?

Regards Oliver.
 
Hi Oliver,

Unfortunately the video linked in Jon's post above shows one of the original, outdated LGB DCC Reverse-Loop Modules and gives no clue how to wire the current 55085 Module that includes sensor track segments. The LGB 55085 Manual shows how to connect the track and sensor wires for a simple wye on page ll. Here is a link to the manual: https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/4c/95/4c95ca844b982d9b2087d5c74d229f1f1612248264.pdf. This setup works fine so long as your longest train will fit in the segment powered by the OUT + and OUT - connections.

A couple of other notes. Do not be confused by the two terminals labelled "POWER". These are only needed to power the module when it is used on an analog powered layout! On a DCC layout, such as your MTS system, the module gets its power from the DCC signal on the track power IN + and IN - terminals. Also, make sure your manual matches what is currently on the Märklin/LGB website. Some of the earlier manuals, such as the one I have, showed improper connections for the Wye.

You need to think about what you are trying to accomplish with the wye in your track plan. Below is what I have done with both my first iteration in pic 1 and my current setup, pic 2. Both will work perfectly. I set mine up this way because the segment of track that is switched by the reverse-loop module needed to be much longer for the length of trains I run. In both pics the In +, In -, Out +, Out -, Sensor 1, Sensor 2, Sensor 3, and Sensor 4 refer to the connections on the reverse-loop module.

The left hand leg of the wye in pic 1 dead-ends. I can pull a train into the dead-end from either direction and reverse out of the wye on the opposite leg to turn the train around

View attachment 292689

Pic 2 shows my current setup. The left hand leg now loops around as the main-line. Sensors 1' and 2' piggy-back on sensors 1 and 2 respectively.

View attachment 292690
Hello Phil,

Thanks very much for your detailed diagrams and write up.
Here is a rough diagram of my relatively small layout using R1 curves.
Now includes the loop and ‘Y’ junction which l am currently building.
It’s all high level with track mounted on shelves.
B9961D9A-ADBC-46CB-B979-3BCD494942EE.jpeg
Will l need a total of eight sensors for this arrangement to work?

Regards

Oliver.23FB88D5-E278-4644-8F03-442A6025D4EF.jpeg673E9982-18BB-4CA1-AA6D-3634568B22CE.jpeg9ABFF9FB-4EE9-4F71-A196-8EB42903F5EE.jpeg1FC2A523-1B67-4254-9967-3F10FE71D4B7.jpeg516C54D1-A38B-4380-AF5C-681BAAAC78C9.jpeg
 
Hi Oliver,

Here's what I would do in your situation. Only one reverse-loop module is needed.

suggestion.jpeg

This setup lets you have a train running around the loop while you're fiddling with another train in the station/yard. The second main power feed to the yard is there so neither the loop or yard rely on power fed from the reverse loop module. You've got plenty of space to adjust the location of the sensors at the entrance to the yard. You can make the polarity controlled segment as long as necessary to handle your longest trains. This is pretty much identical to what I have shown in pic 2 of my post.

You could treat the complete yard as a dead end spur similar to what I did in pic 1 of my post This would entail a bit less wiring but would mean all the power for the rails south of the wye is being fed through the reverse loop module. It should not be a problem as I believe the module can handle 8 amps continuous, 16 amps peak switching current. (This is the Massoth equivalent module's rating. Märklin does not provide this info for LGB badged module.)
Although it will work, I would prefer a separate main power feed to the yard myself.
 
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Some theory about reverse loops for DCC (as I understand it):

Nature of DCC power and signal
  • There's no set +ve or -ve rail. Direction is determined relative to the facing of the engine.
  • But, at any given point in time, one rail is powered and the other is not powered +ve and the other -ve. These rails must not touch.
  • The rails switch polarity up to 10,000 times per second.
  • Passing a train over a separator could short the two half-rails together and cause them to touch. At the time the train crosses the joiner, both sides of the joiner must have consistent polarity.
Because the polarity switches frequently, the reverse loop module can get away with instantaneously flipping the phase of a particular track. Worst case scenario is that the train decoder will read this as an unexpected signal flip and discard the packet as faulty. But control stations assume that some packets will get lost, so losing one to the reverse loop module isn't a big deal.

The role of the sensor track and reverse loop is to normalise the phase (polarity) of the DCC power across the sensor track. When the sensor track is bridged (by the train running over it), the reverse loop module flips the phase of the controlled track to match the phase of the track at the sensor and the train continues none-the-wiser. But this leads to the most important rule - only one sensor track can be bridged at a time. Note that bridged includes the loco, but can also include any other conducting material, such as cars with metal wheels.

The nice thing about setting up the sensors as in Phil's first diagram (on both paths immediately after the turnout) is that it's basically impossible to accidentally bridge both sensors, as that would require two trains to be using the same turnout at the same time. In contrast, setting it up on both ends of one connecting track requires that any train can completely fit within that track.



Phil - in your second diagram you have 3 sensor tracks. I assume that the sensor on one of the junctions is wired together with the sensor on the branch line. It won't matter which as long as the sensors are wired consistently (sensor-1, sensor-2 each on the same track). Then if a train crosses the other sensor, the "reversing section" phase is flipped and then flips back as the train exits the "reversing section".

Advantage of doing it like this: the reverse loop module only needs to provide power for a single train at a time (rather than all trains on the branch).

Disadvantage: you need to rigorously ensure that only one train is in that section. Specifically, you can't have one train exiting from one end while another enters from the other. (Technically you can, but only over the side of the junction whose sensors match.)



If my understanding is correct, you could use a single reversing section between two turning loops, putting the sensor sections on the branches of each turnout. At each end, one track pair is 1+2 and the other is 3+4. As long as no train is long enough to cross both turnouts simultaneously, the decision on which diverging track is 1+2 and 3+4 is arbitrary.



Another question: I note that the diagrams always have Out+ between 1 & 3, and Out- between 2 & 4, with 1&2 paired on one sensor and 3&4 paired on the other. Is this required for correct operation? If so, I'm sort-of surprised they don't refer to the wires as P,P1,P2 (Out+, 1, 3) and N,N1,N2 (Out-, 2 and 4).

Likewise, I note that the fixed +/P rail always touches 1 & 4, while the fixed -/N rail always touches 2 & 3. Is this required?

Examples:

This will work:
P ---- 1 ---- (P) ---- 3 ---- N N ---- 2 ---- (N) ---- 4 ---- P

Will this work?
P ---- 1 ---- (N) ---- 3 ---- N N ---- 2 ---- (P) ---- 4 ---- P

What about this?
P ---- 1 ---- (P) ---- 4 ---- N N ---- 2 ---- (N) ---- 3 ---- P
 
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In DCC, 'Track+' and 'Track-' have no real meaning (as far as the power/signal is concerned) ..
Partly, it is 'convention' and partly practicality. - If you are running multiple feeds to your track, then all the 'left' rails need to be connected together, and all the 'right' rails need to be connected together.
Problem is, 'left' and 'right' depend on which way you are facing, and if you have a loop, then it depends which side of the loop you are looking at.
Historically, with analogue power, there is a 'positive' and 'negative'.
So a 'convention' to make it easier for us to follow, connect-up, and fault-finding. Electrons are colour-blind, and lazy.. They don't care what colour the wires are, and always take the easiest route!

PhilP
 
When I was into electric track power (which I still am in 00 and my G loft railway)I used to think of “Inner Rail“ and “Outer Rail”. Of course this breaks down when you have a loop that puts the rail beneath a higher line and on the triangle as here. But the principle holds quite well if you use differing colors of wire for each rail. I used speaker cable that has a white strip on one of the wires so this gave me a link to what I was doing.

No please let us not get into the ways and wyes of that kind of wire. It served me well for near 18 years at 2 different railways, long lengths being used on both lines.
 
Andrew, have to take an exception (since you work hard to be technically correct)... both rails are always powered, There is no reference to ground with the DCC signal at the rails. The only "voltage" you measure is between the rails. Except for the transition between polarities (which theoretically is instant) there is always voltage present at both rails, i.e. there is always voltage measured between the rails.

Therefore no rail is ever at zero volts unless you brought in a ground to measure it against, and it would have to be a ground from the output stage. That "ground" is not present at the output terminals.

This is a bipolar square wave, from plus to minus and back again.. never stopping at zero, (unless you disconnect the power!!).

It's a fine point to many, but it's important in understanding how it works.

It's simply square wave AC. It's very hard for some people, because they have AC defined as the sinusoidal AC that comes from the wall outlet, but AC is just Alternating Current... no mention of the waveform.

So as you state, you are simply synchronizing the phase of 2 AC signals to be in phase with each other at the transitions in and out of the reverse loop. It's interesting the aversion in Europe to not just using the short-sensing type of autoreverser, used by large clubs for years with no ill effects, and no sensors, Much simpler, more reliable. (If you think your track powered trains don't have little arcs when running, get down to track level at night and watch your train run, you will see little arcs all the time between the wheels/skates and the rails).

Anyway, just a fine point on the actual signal, there is never a situation when a rail is unpowered.

Greg
 
Hi Oliver,

Here's what I would do in your situation. Only one reverse-loop module is needed.

View attachment 292723

This setup lets you have a train running around the loop while you're fiddling with another train in the station/yard. The second main power feed to the yard is there so neither the loop or yard rely on power fed from the reverse loop module. You've got plenty of space to adjust the location of the sensors at the entrance to the yard. You can make the polarity controlled segment as long as necessary to handle your longest trains. This is pretty much identical to what I have shown in pic 2 of my post.

You could treat the complete yard as a dead end spur similar to what I did in pic 1 of my post This would entail a bit less wiring but would mean all the power for the rails south of the wye is being fed through the reverse loop module. It should not be a problem as I believe the module can handle 8 amps continuous, 16 amps peak switching current. (This is the Massoth equivalent module's rating. Märklin does not provide this info for LGB badged module.)
Although it will work, I would prefer a separate main power feed to the yard myself.
That’s a great plan Phil.
I can easily fit another feed to the yard.
Is the Massoth module compatible with LGB MTS controller?
 
Is the Massoth module compatible with LGB MTS controller?
Yes, the LGB module is identical with the Massoth module. Both are made by Massoth. The only difference is the color of the housing. In fact any DCC reverse loop module that I am aware of is compatible. The only concern is whether a module can handle the voltage and current typical of large scale trains. The modules do not have not have DCC decoders in them and do not communicate with the central station.
This will work:
P ---- 1 ---- (P) ---- 3 ---- N N ---- 2 ---- (N) ---- 4 ---- P

Will this work?
P ---- 1 ---- (N) ---- 3 ---- N N ---- 2 ---- (P) ---- 4 ---- P

What about this?
P ---- 1 ---- (P) ---- 4 ---- N N ---- 2 ---- (N) ---- 3 ---- P
Andrew,

I believe your second example (Will this work?) will also function OK.
The third (What about this?) will not.

As I understand it sensors 1 and 3 need to be on opposite ends of the same switched switched rail. Likewise sensors 2 and 4 on opposite ends of the other switched rail. Also, I believe 1 and 2 need to be paired and 3 and 4 need to be paired. So, using your nomenclature which I find fairly elegant, this will NOT work either.

P----1----(P)----3----N
N----4----(N)----2----P

However, I have not actually tested any of the these other sensor permutations. I do have a spare module and may give it a go one of these days.
 
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It should not be a problem as I believe the module can handle 8 amps continuous, 16 amps peak switching current. (This is the Massoth equivalent module's rating. Märklin does not provide this info for LGB badged module.)
The latest LGB Depesche I received yesterday has an article on reverse loops and the 55085 Reverse Loop Module. Serendipity? The article confirms the LGB module can handle 27V and 8 amps just like the Massoth 8157001 module.
 
Hi Oliver,

You will need 4 additional insulated rail joiners if you do happen to use my suggested approach. You will also need a couple of short segments of rail, approximately one inch long or you can use a LGB 10040, 41mm straight with the metal joiners removed. (The 10040 has been proven as rail sensors and is use on my RR.)

I really like the Massoth insulated joiners that come with the modules. The Massoth part no. is 8102520 for a pack of 20 with all the hardware including wire solder tabs. 8102520 Insulated rail connector for G-gauge, Stainless steel (20/Pack) – Massoth Elektronik GmbH. Modell-Land.de has some similar but not as nice in my opinion insulated joiners in packs of 8. Isolierschienenverbinder Edelstahl 19 mm 8 Stück ML-Train 8100608

Edited to correct Massoth joiner part no.
 
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Hi Oliver,

Unfortunately the video linked in Jon's post above shows one of the original, outdated LGB DCC Reverse-Loop Modules and gives no clue how to wire the current 55085 Module that includes sensor track segments. The LGB 55085 Manual shows how to connect the track and sensor wires for a simple wye on page ll. Here is a link to the manual: https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/4c/95/4c95ca844b982d9b2087d5c74d229f1f1612248264.pdf. This setup works fine so long as your longest train will fit in the segment powered by the OUT + and OUT - connections.

A couple of other notes. Do not be confused by the two terminals labelled "POWER". These are only needed to power the module when it is used on an analog powered layout! On a DCC layout, such as your MTS system, the module gets its power from the DCC signal on the track power IN + and IN - terminals. Also, make sure your manual matches what is currently on the Märklin/LGB website. Some of the earlier manuals, such as the one I have, showed improper connections for the Wye.

You need to think about what you are trying to accomplish with the wye in your track plan. Below is what I have done with both my first iteration in pic 1 and my current setup, pic 2. Both will work perfectly. I set mine up this way because the segment of track that is switched by the reverse-loop module needed to be much longer for the length of trains I run. In both pics the In +, In -, Out +, Out -, Sensor 1, Sensor 2, Sensor 3, and Sensor 4 refer to the connections on the reverse-loop module.

The left hand leg of the wye in pic 1 dead-ends. I can pull a train into the dead-end from either direction and reverse out of the wye on the opposite leg to turn the train around

View attachment 292689

Pic 2 shows my current setup. The left hand leg now loops around as the main-line. Sensors 1' and 2' piggy-back on sensors 1 and 2 respectively.

View attachment 292690
While it may be an original, the things work just fine so depending on ones pocket and so long as massive power needs are not required it will still work and my vid shows that the wiring is somewhat less complex than the newer LGB and indeed Massoth ones require. Though admittedly the massoth one does (or at least used to) include the isolating Track Clamps required, I know this cos I fitted one on my mates layout
 
Hello,

I’m currently building a DCC LGB track layout including a reverse loop and triangle junction.
What bits and bobs do l need to fit to the circuit to keep engines running smoothly?
I understand that a 55085 reverse loop module will be needed but don’t know how the triangle junction is wired.

Does anyone have a 55085 loop module for-sale?
I’m using an MTS controller

Regards

Oliver.
The current Massoth reverse loop module has the ability to use sensor tracks but it can be also be used in 'short-circuit mode' by use of an internal jumper plug.
There must be many of us that have the earlier LGB reverse loop modules that only work by detecting the short-circuit when a locomotive crosses the gaps between opposite polarities. In my own experience the so called arcing problem has not caused any damage to the tracks or wheels over several years of use. One of my lines was a return loop to return loop and used a pair of modules that had a lot of use.
Using the module in short-circuit mode simplifies the wiring considerably. The module only requires 4 wires. 2 for main track power and 2 for the reversing section as shown in Jon's video, post 2
I have now removed the reverse loops so both my modules could be up for sale for a bargain price if you are interested.
Alan
 
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