Tramway Catenary
- Thread starter themole
- Start date
Wow, Guys,
well work and nice pictures of research.
Me, i like most the green old tram from the mole....but because of the rolling stock!
Taking such a thing outside will work with cats and VERS small dogs, but my experience with big dogs is, that they will destroy EVERYTHING when they decide to "just play a bit arround".
Greetings
Frank
well work and nice pictures of research.
Me, i like most the green old tram from the mole....but because of the rolling stock!
Taking such a thing outside will work with cats and VERS small dogs, but my experience with big dogs is, that they will destroy EVERYTHING when they decide to "just play a bit arround".
Greetings
Frank
Miamigo259
Registered
I've included some photos below as a contribution to this thread which were taken on the Katowice Interurban tramway route 14 out to Myslowice which includes street running, gutter running and roadside running along its run. This system is full of character but has suffered several line closures in recent years due to lack of finance. As far as I know the Myslowice line is still open, but it was in rather a state the last time I was there in 2006!
Overhead is a mixture of poles/bracket arms, building mounted wall rosettes and traction poles with some seriously long span wire construction. Route is single track once it gets beyond Szopienice and runs through some pre WW1 miners housing sites and open countryside before entering Myslowice itself. There is a coal mine at Myslowice and the majority of the buildings are Germanic pre-WW1 ones from when this was part of Germany.
Gutter running in downtown Myslowice
As above, but the rendering is falling off the former pub on the left to reveal "Myslowitz" in elaborate script, together with other words in German.
Roadside running next to the PKP main line. The area of miners housing is in the background
Seriously long spanwires and what remains of the miners housing area. I assume there used to be a lot more but WW2 most probably put paid to a lot of the properties there. Some of the remaining ones haven't had a lot done to them since 1945....
Just before the tram tunnel under the PKP main line towards Sosnowiec
Normal street running in Szopienice
The tunnel itself
Back in Myslowice
Tram coming off the Sosnowiec line
Flat crossing in central Katowice Rynek
Overhead is a mixture of poles/bracket arms, building mounted wall rosettes and traction poles with some seriously long span wire construction. Route is single track once it gets beyond Szopienice and runs through some pre WW1 miners housing sites and open countryside before entering Myslowice itself. There is a coal mine at Myslowice and the majority of the buildings are Germanic pre-WW1 ones from when this was part of Germany.
Gutter running in downtown Myslowice
As above, but the rendering is falling off the former pub on the left to reveal "Myslowitz" in elaborate script, together with other words in German.
Roadside running next to the PKP main line. The area of miners housing is in the background
Seriously long spanwires and what remains of the miners housing area. I assume there used to be a lot more but WW2 most probably put paid to a lot of the properties there. Some of the remaining ones haven't had a lot done to them since 1945....
Just before the tram tunnel under the PKP main line towards Sosnowiec
Normal street running in Szopienice
The tunnel itself
Back in Myslowice
Tram coming off the Sosnowiec line
Flat crossing in central Katowice Rynek
tramcar trev
all manner of mechanical apparatus...
Attached is a sketch for my solution to a G scale overhead frog, made from brass tube and brass shim. I discovered a long time ago when doing fine work like this the easiest way is to use 45% silver solder..... So to make these cut the bits to size, fold up the "Chassis" and then using the paste flux assemble; put small "chips" of the 45% SS into place where you want it and LET THE FLUX DRY.... then gently heat with a torch and all should be good, the supenders can be soft soldered on after cleaning.... If you do the heating with the flux wet the boiling action created may disturb things.... but use small amounts of flux apply it only where you want the SS to run... Not to say that some adjusting with a fine abasive wheel, the "cut off" type seems best to adjust the spaces etc is not necessary....
I am useing 8kg multi strand brass wire as used to hang pictures as the conductor and it not only looks good it works very well and it can be slipped into the brass tube and a touch with a soldering iron and the job is done if you flux and tin it before sticking it in the frog...
I will only need a few of these and obviously one can custom make to any configuration.... I will probabbly need more of the Y style for passing loops and as can be seen from my sketch it's easy to inbuild a bias so the the pole goes to the left or right as required....
I did enquire as to the price of the cast ones but they were prohibitive, so I came up with this solution.... I did try a simplified version where the conductor is just pushed through holes in the chassis and soldered in situ but they don't look as good and are harder to install....
I won't boar you with pics of my overhead assmbly gig... simply a pair of locking surgical tweezers clamped in a flat drill vise and able to be manouvred as required with the conductor held securlly to solder to the pre placed ears....
I am useing 8kg multi strand brass wire as used to hang pictures as the conductor and it not only looks good it works very well and it can be slipped into the brass tube and a touch with a soldering iron and the job is done if you flux and tin it before sticking it in the frog...
I will only need a few of these and obviously one can custom make to any configuration.... I will probabbly need more of the Y style for passing loops and as can be seen from my sketch it's easy to inbuild a bias so the the pole goes to the left or right as required....
I did enquire as to the price of the cast ones but they were prohibitive, so I came up with this solution.... I did try a simplified version where the conductor is just pushed through holes in the chassis and soldered in situ but they don't look as good and are harder to install....
I won't boar you with pics of my overhead assmbly gig... simply a pair of locking surgical tweezers clamped in a flat drill vise and able to be manouvred as required with the conductor held securlly to solder to the pre placed ears....
tramcar trev
all manner of mechanical apparatus...
themole said:
These are called " wall roses" in Sydney and there used to be 1000's of them on every brick building where the span wires were attached to. Now individually if you can find one they sell for AU$1000's each.... there was even a site where their locations could be given so that they could be "salvaged"..... and now Architects are not allowed to remove or even disturb them when redesigning uban areas where they still exist...
Miamigo259
Registered
Known as "Rosettes" here and there are 3 still fixed to buildings in Ipswich town centre, if you know where to look, almost 50 years after the trolleybus wires were taken down on that stretch of road. They may actually be original tramway ones which were reused after the change to trolleybuses on that route in 1923!tramcar trev said:
trammayo
Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
Hi Trev.
I presume you will be using trolley wheels for pick-up. Skid or sliding heads would wear quickly on twisted wire.
When I made an "0" gauge display once, I formed the hangers and frogs from tinplate (this wasn't an outdoor display). It was basically a channel - ideal for trailing frogs. As my trolley head (I only got round to building one doubledeck car) was non-swivel I had to be careful about positioning frogs - as they did in the 12" to the foot world - cheap and cheerful.
I modelled in N gauge - chose my home city of Leeds because I could use bow collectors - traction poles turned from nails in a power drill and overhead mono wire (stripped from insulated wires) soldered in position. The track was Piko all set in plaster and the setts were all scribed in and colour washed. The points were infilled with thin card. The track had insulated sections and the overhead had none.
All buildings were made from card. The tram was a Leeds "Pivotal" car based on a Lima tender chassis - the wheelbase of the donor was much too long for a conventional truck - and the body was made from paper. The bow was bent from a paper clip - horizontal axis soldered on and a blob of solder at the bottom so that the bow was always held vertical. When under the overhead it always trailed. I still have it somewhere - much buckled and shrunk from 30-odd years ago.
I have loved trams all my life and, probably, would like to restart modelling them again,
Mick
I presume you will be using trolley wheels for pick-up. Skid or sliding heads would wear quickly on twisted wire.
When I made an "0" gauge display once, I formed the hangers and frogs from tinplate (this wasn't an outdoor display). It was basically a channel - ideal for trailing frogs. As my trolley head (I only got round to building one doubledeck car) was non-swivel I had to be careful about positioning frogs - as they did in the 12" to the foot world - cheap and cheerful.
I modelled in N gauge - chose my home city of Leeds because I could use bow collectors - traction poles turned from nails in a power drill and overhead mono wire (stripped from insulated wires) soldered in position. The track was Piko all set in plaster and the setts were all scribed in and colour washed. The points were infilled with thin card. The track had insulated sections and the overhead had none.
All buildings were made from card. The tram was a Leeds "Pivotal" car based on a Lima tender chassis - the wheelbase of the donor was much too long for a conventional truck - and the body was made from paper. The bow was bent from a paper clip - horizontal axis soldered on and a blob of solder at the bottom so that the bow was always held vertical. When under the overhead it always trailed. I still have it somewhere - much buckled and shrunk from 30-odd years ago.
I have loved trams all my life and, probably, would like to restart modelling them again,
Mick
tramcar trev
all manner of mechanical apparatus...
trammayo said:
tramcar trev
all manner of mechanical apparatus...
themole said:
Morning all, please keep the ideas flowing, here is my version which can handle bows, pantographs, and fixed trolley heads. The sides of the frog are the same hight as the inner guides. The frogs can be soldered up using brass and nickle silver. Alyn
Alyn... these are very early circa 1900 are they not....Not than I'm complaining they look nice....
trammayo
Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
On the subject of Tramway "Catenary" - and I'll be excused of being pedantic here - most if not all 1st generation British tramways did not use catenary. It was mainly a railway thing. However the same cannot be said of modern systems.
British tramways - in fact virtually world-wide - used span wires or bracket arms to suspend the running wires. Continental practise introduced catenary as a more suitable suspension method for running (or contact) wires - especially for higher speeds and heavier currents (am I right here?).
I just wonder if Australia used similar nomenclature to describe overhead lines - like ears, pull-offs, frogs, segments, traction poles, section feeders, breakers, etc.
As an aside, despite metrification, the thread on hangers, etc, is still Whitworth (and on the continent too!) - that is of course on "traditional" type overhead.
Mick
British tramways - in fact virtually world-wide - used span wires or bracket arms to suspend the running wires. Continental practise introduced catenary as a more suitable suspension method for running (or contact) wires - especially for higher speeds and heavier currents (am I right here?).
I just wonder if Australia used similar nomenclature to describe overhead lines - like ears, pull-offs, frogs, segments, traction poles, section feeders, breakers, etc.
As an aside, despite metrification, the thread on hangers, etc, is still Whitworth (and on the continent too!) - that is of course on "traditional" type overhead.
Mick
Dtsteam
G Scale, Travel, Steam Boats, Mechanical Music
I think we should discuss the trolley poles here as they have a bearing on the overhead - particularly frog design and positioning. Trev and Mick have touched on the wheel vs skid options. What chance a swivel head trolley ? or is it more trouble than its worth.
While we are at it, has anyone got a good method for making G scale ears & attaching pull offs ?
While we are at it, has anyone got a good method for making G scale ears & attaching pull offs ?
themole
tramways
David more trouble than it's worth. I have run with overhead for my LGB since the 1970's no problems at all; and that includes electric rack locos, in the early 1990's. I have built my own overhead for 4mm, and 7mm, working tramways as well. I believe in KISS:--keep it simple stupid. If it looks right it is right.Trolley heads, I have always used fixed. Ears, and pull-offs, I make from brass or copper wire, soldered to suit. Copper mig/tig wire is a source of overhead wire as well as code 75 or 80 nickle silver. As for "Catenary" I use the term, as today most people know catenary in its general word use. Saves a lot of confusion as overhead can be translated into many other connotations in language translation!! Alyn
Dennis Paulson
Registered
I realy like operating from the overhead wire , and watching the pantograph flex up and down as the train operates , looking good .
And these tram / catenary postings with photos are GREAT .
And these tram / catenary postings with photos are GREAT .
http://www.swehs.co.uk/swehs-trams/tram12.html#item12-1 < Link To http://www.swehs.co.uk/sw...s/tram12.html#item12-1
Overhead and Stud info
http://www.swehs.co.uk/swehs-trams/index.html < Link To Tramways and Cliff Railways in The South West
tramcar trev
all manner of mechanical apparatus...
trammayo said:
To be really pedantic the word "catenary" actually refers to the curve the trolley wire actually so maybe we should be referring to single and double wire catenary setups falls into between points of suspension..... Electric railways traditionally use a wire with a deep catenary curve to suspend the power wire on droppers, sometimes sprung and in some cases you can see the pantograph lift the power wire as the locomotive progresses, Tramcars actually do the same thing i.e. lift the trolley wire and there is despite horizontal appearances considerable sag between points of suspension.... now we can further pedantesise the entire excercise by defining an electric tram as oposed to an electric locomotive.... to my way of thinking an electric tram has a trolley pole with a little wheel on the end, put a pantograph on it and it immediatley becomes European...
yes similar nomencalture is used for tramway overhead in Australia as we were in our golden age of tramways very much under the influence of the "Empire" so we inherited the entire setup. Strewth we even had to send the copper wire back to old blighty when they closed the system down in Sydney....
As I can show Australia used poles even on high speed trams, the H cars on the Glenelg line regularly clocked around 100kph with poles, then they put pantographs on them and had to slow them down ....
In Hong Kong on the metre gauge very british trams there they still use poles, that is an amazing system, I was most impressed with Shakiwan terminus which is a baloon loop in the road just like doing a u turn in a car....
As an interesting aside it is illegal to use other than metric threads and dimensions in Australia sice we metrified.. so even though we still have things like BSP screwed pipe fittings they have to be described in metric sizes... A few years ago I designed a small Yarrow type boiler for a steam launch I owned and it failed its test because I had given the working pressure in PSI instead of KpA.... beaureaucrats, salt of the earth.... alas I'm now rambling incoherently....
trammayo
Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
Nothing incoherent Trevor - you've hit the nail on the head (beaurocrats!).
On the matter of catenary versus overhead, catenary has several meanings - you are right, I am right but, as you say it is the curve - be that in a vertical or horizontal plane.
Its what you are brought up with I suppose. In Bradford, with the Trolleybus overhead, they used a trans-catenary. Also described as the Nottingham system, there was an extra span wire with droppers to give extra support on wide roads.
Leeds (on its tram system) used duplex contact wire on curves where high usage prevailed. At terminii and short working crossovers, they had what was described as a "bag wire" which in effect was slack overhead to allow the bow collector to be pulled over.
Fascinating stuff. I used to stand at the trolleybus stop and predict that there was a trolleybus coming even when it wasn't in sight, simply because the overhead was bouncing! Happy days.
Mick
On the matter of catenary versus overhead, catenary has several meanings - you are right, I am right but, as you say it is the curve - be that in a vertical or horizontal plane.
Its what you are brought up with I suppose. In Bradford, with the Trolleybus overhead, they used a trans-catenary. Also described as the Nottingham system, there was an extra span wire with droppers to give extra support on wide roads.
Leeds (on its tram system) used duplex contact wire on curves where high usage prevailed. At terminii and short working crossovers, they had what was described as a "bag wire" which in effect was slack overhead to allow the bow collector to be pulled over.
Fascinating stuff. I used to stand at the trolleybus stop and predict that there was a trolleybus coming even when it wasn't in sight, simply because the overhead was bouncing! Happy days.
Mick