What is solution to r1 points?

C

Cyclone

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Didn't want to crash another thread, but recently read a lot about wheel problems and r1 points.

I have a couple of r1 points (I intend to replace one day with peco...).

Since I've started building my own stock it's raised concerns about suitable wheels and axle lengths.

It's been suggested ip engineering wheels don't run well through r1 points?
 
This is from my findings, but the home built rolling stock I have from IP Engineering really didn't like the R1 points. Its fine with Piko R3 equivalent points. Maybe its my building ability, but I have just replaced the R1 points due to constant derailing. I run live steam manually controlled so maybe its that not helping?
 
With the ones supplied in the Swift Sixteen kits it appears the issue is the back to backs from my experience as the profile of the wheels itself seems similar to other makes like Accucraft.
The LGB wheels have flanges that are nearly twice as thick as the steel IP wheels so the check rails are designed for that and allows the IP wheel to move far enough over that it can run up the rail at the frog.
You can see the problem here that the finer flange allows the axle to go further to the right and can allow the right hand wheel to ride up as it passes throught the frog. Set the back to back as 40mm and they run through fine.
4f2b6ed8941242e0b139173826765019.jpg

I suspect the problem with facing movements on the switch rails is the finer flange splitting the blades if they don't quite close. The LGB flanges being coarser with a greater angle tend to catch the right side and run through ok.
I've had similar problems with Bachmann locos splitting the R3 points if the blade doesn't quite sit snug in the curved position.
 
1. run points trailing as much as possible. - entirely saves 'picking the points' or 'splitting the switch' or whatever term you want to use...
2. check every single wheelset of every piece of stock and motive power for proper gauge. You'll be surprised how sloppy the manufacturers are.
3. shim wing rails as needed. Especially if you're running more prototypical wheel profiles.
4. deepen flangeways of frog if needed. Especially if you're running a lot of toy train type deep flange stuff.
5. Even Aristo's stuff doesn't much like Aristo's r-1 turnouts-- so use LGB on the main...
6. backing through r-1s with targa couplers is probably asking for trouble in general (because of the way the loading forces are applied). So if you plan to do a lot of that, you may want to consider body mounts.

Hope it helps...

Edit: PaulRhB's photo shows a classic example of where shimming the wing rail (ie. gluing a strip of plastic on the running side to narrow that flangeway gap) would help tremendously....
 
I had this problem with my first LGB R1 points back in the 80's. I had the problem with Merlin Live Steam Locomotives that had G1 Fine Scale back to back standards. The same problem that you appear to be having. My solution was to put small slivers of metal on the Check Rails in effect to reduce he Back to Back dimension. I found that Peco 00 Flat Bottom Rail (sorry cant quote ref as my Peco Cat is mislaid at the moment) worked well and allowed both the Fine Scale Merlins and LGB Stock to run with no problems. Hpe this helps, should save you money if you so it. Oh by the way do not rely on Glue, I drilled small holes through the Slithers and Check Rail to hold in place with small pins.
JonD
 
I have a mixture of Aristo & LGB R1s on my trailer - 4 of which are facing - and have no problems NOW. The NOW is because I used to have!

It came down to checking B to B of the wheelsets (and fixing), weighting pony trucks and making sure that the trackwork, entering or leaving the points is correctly levelled. I use mainly bogie stock, Big Haulers, plus a variety of other locos with differing wheel arrangements. Reverse curves are not a problem either. And all this is because the 80ft of track (confined to a nominal 6 x 21ft) is on a (near) level plane - subject to levelling the trailer of course!

In the garden HOWEVER, I'm just down to two R1 (one LGB facing and one Aristo trailing) out of a total of six points and have occassional derailments on the R1s if I allow trains to go too fast. I have found that my track - which is ballasted and not screwed down - does move in both the horizontal and vertical planes. The points themselves (R1 or larger), and crossings, do warp and need pressing back into the correct poistion sometimes. But, in the MAIN, I have only changed to R3 (Pico R5) to enable a better transition for larger locomotives (if I ever get any:rolf:).
 
Shims certainly are a good solution and you can glue them if you rough up the lgb plastic first so the glue gets something to bite into.
I suggested the back to back when I found the IP wheels were quite noticeably wider than the Accucraft ones that run fine.
 
buy better wheels.. or is that too simple?
 
I have some stock with "fine scale" wheels unsure of make and had this very same problem i found loosening the bogie to body mounting screw and adding more weight cured the majority of problems......g scale points just arnt acurate enough..... you may find its the rear bogie on the track either side of the point that is gripping the body of the wagon/coach and in effect making the leading bogie skip................... a bit like stearing on ice...you need weight on the leading bogie to push it into the track there by making it stear................ I know what i mean just not good at explaining and while not 100% perfect 100% of the time its only eractic movements that now derail a wagon

Tony
 
mike said:
buy better wheels.. or is that too simple?
Click to expand...

Thats one concern, which wheels?

Seems the problem is the wide gap between rail and check rail in combination with a tight radius, allowing the wheels to slide outwards. Then the small flange on scale wheels riding up over the outer rail.

Excellent work guys.

What ever the verb to shim is....Im of to do some "shimming"...(maybe not now as its -2).
 
mike said:
buy better wheels.. or is that too simple?
Click to expand...
No different from modifying the point though really Mike, I suspect shims are going to work out cheaper by a long way too :bigsmile:
Unfortunately as there is no set standard for G and people want to run G1 models too you'd have to change the wheels on a lot of stock. In HO they adopted the RP25 standard but even then some manufacturers choose to go their own way and still wheels need to be changed.
G is a lot more difficult as we are trying to run finescale G1, 1/29, 1/26, 1/24, 1/22.5, 1/20.3, 1/19 and 1/13th models all on the same track gauge. So unless all those manufacturers and LGB, Aristo, USA trains, Trainline etc etc wanted to the differing scale means that scale flanges on Gauge 1 (1/32) and 7/8ths (1/13) aren't going to be compatible with the same track.
In G we compromise to run rule 8 variety and consequently have to accept that we might have to either change or modify the wheels or the track.
 
Stainzmeister said:
I find running LGB stock on LGB track is usually fine (Except where frost heave means the point(s) needs re-bedding).
That includes both metal or plastic wheels.
I have in excess of 30 R1 points in the garden.
One or two of my wagons/coaches have wheels by other manufacturers (unbranded metal wheels) they work fine too.
Click to expand...
I'm currently on a rolling program to replace all the plastic wheels on my LGB rolling stock with Lilliput/Bachmann (both from the same factory) steel wheels.

These work fine on the many R1 points and a couple of R3s, as well as on diamond crossings and a couple of 3 way points on my layout.

I am just one short of the 30 required to be on level pegging with the Stainzmeister....
 
Gizzy said:
I'm currently on a rolling program to replace all the plastic wheels on my LGB rolling stock with Lilliput/Bachmann (both from the same factory) steel wheels.
These work fine on the many R1 points and a couple of R3s, as well as on diamond crossings and a couple of 3 way points on my layout.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
Basic principle number 1 (*) - if you use trackwork designed to LGB standards (e.g. LGB, Piko, Aristocraft, Bachmann et al), use wheels to match, or accept that you will have to make modifications to either points or wheels.

(*) - Perhaps this should be called Duffy's law? :bigsmile:
 
Every point on my railway (bar one) is LGB R1 and I have never had any problems with stock fitted with LGB or Bachmann wheels. Accucraft wheels do drop into the frog gap, but I still haven't experienced any particular derailment issue with them. The only wheels that I have had constant problems with are IP, so if I buy an IP kit nowadays, the wheels go straight into the bin.

I don't run live steam, but visitors have bought LS locos and they have run OK. Having said that, steamies do often tend to run a little faster and I would really steer away from R1's if I was running LS regularly.
 
Thanks for all this info, Paul & others.
This is where the wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum is so valuable to a relative newcomer like me.
I have had nothing but problems with my Accucraft stock after I extended my layout & changed my running so that the Accucraft stock ran into LGB & Piko R3s. I had assumed it was my inexperienced track laying until I went to the Wickham meet & found others had not only the same problem but that some dealers had tried to push it under the table (not had that myself I must add).
I was dead keen on an electric Countess to make up a full train, then the above happened & it put me right off. So I went for another LGB loco which runs great & re did things so I could just run trains as I had at first.
Now I know the real problems I will do some re-thinking. Thanks again.
 
I'd add Roundhouse, Kiss, and Trainline 45 to the list of stock that will take LGB R1 (43? points permanently outdoors) ( but I take the gypsy's warning on IP (having just acquired two IoM vans to make up). I have an ongoing programme of substituting metal wheels for plastic ones but with about 500 axles to do, I have prioritised the lighter bogie stock (eg the LGB bogie tankers) which have greatest tendency to jump the guard rails on points. [I might add that the LGB vans made in China will not track through any points very well very when fitted with metal wheels but careful investigation shows that they are stiff runners because of the way in which the single axle truck is attached to the body underside - the Chinese fastening is a plastic stud whose tightness can't be adjusted, whereas the normal LGB fastening is a scre].

GH
 
Stainzmeister said:
Gizzy said:
I am just one short of the 30 required to be on level pegging with the Stainzmeister....
Click to expand...

Oops, I misquoted Gizzy, currently on 32 number R1 points &:
Click to expand...
3 short then!

And I'm planing to rationalise, so it may be 5....
 
I'm using homemade r.5 points about 300mm rad.... I have no probs with bachmann and AMS wheels except in one spot where there is a set of points at the bottom of a 1:24 grade and I will have to install a check rail there to avoid jumping the frog...
 
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