How would you advise someone converting to digital?

if you take a DCC decoder equipped loco to run on a regular DC track you might want to ensure the DC track power is not PWM.
PWM track power MAY disrupt the decoder programming.
 
stockers said:
£165 from Mark - including the speaker.
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I also endorse Mark and he is my first choice, not only for price but also service.
However the decoder in question is showing as temporarily out of stock and I strongly suspect the price will have to increase with new stock..
A pulse generator may also be needed at £26 (maybe more as one type is also temporarily out of stock). In addition there's P&P.
Some may also advise changing the 5V bulbs and smoke unit, further increasing the cost.
Personally I'm happier if a project ends up being under rather than over budget so I'll maintain my original estimate.
 
Agree with Alan, that covers the likely differences. If you use lots of functions on your decoders then some systems only support F0-F9 so you may not be able to play some of the odd-ball sounds triggered by F10 upwards but that's a minor detail.
 
Tony Walsham said:
if you take a DCC decoder equipped loco to run on a regular DC track you might want to ensure the DC track power is not PWM.
PWM track power MAY disrupt the decoder programming.
Click to expand...

I've noticed that when some visitors to our track set up their own power supply, my DC loco emits a motor whine. Is this evidence of pulse width modulated power - or is there some other way of directly ascertaining the type of power in the line?

I don't neccessarily trust people when they say their power supply cannot have any undesirable effect on my loco! .... :)
 
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Trainman 864 said:
I've noticed that when some visitors to our track set up their own power supply, my DC loco emits a motor whine. Is this evidence of pulse width modulated power - or is there some other way of directly ascertaining the type of power in the line?

I don't neccessarily trust people when they say their power supply cannot have any undesirable effect on my loco! .... :)
Click to expand...

Normally, 'whine' from a DC loco is when it is on a DCC powered track..

The DCC track 'supply' carries the data, as well as the power to the loco's.. A SINGLE DC loco can be controlled by using address '0'.. The Central Station then slews the centre-point of the 'square-wave' power to the track away from '0' volts, so as to mimic a DC voltage for the analogue loco..

The whine (or buzz / whistle) is the motor windings 'vibrating' at the signal frequency of the DCC signal.
To an 'engineers' ear, this is not nice! - Not kind to the motor / loco either IMHO..

Don't leave an analogue loco on the track for any length of time if you are not running it, and limit the running time as well.
 
PhilP said:
Normally, 'whine' from a DC loco is when it is on a DCC powered track..

The DCC track 'supply' carries the data, as well as the power to the loco's.. A SINGLE DC loco can be controlled by using address '0'.. The Central Station then slews the centre-point of the 'square-wave' power to the track away from '0' volts, so as to mimic a DC voltage for the analogue loco..

The whine (or buzz / whistle) is the motor windings 'vibrating' at the signal frequency of the DCC signal.
To an 'engineers' ear, this is not nice! - Not kind to the motor / loco either IMHO..

Don't leave an analogue loco on the track for any length of time if you are not running it, and limit the running time as well.
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Wow! - thanks for that timely warning Phil - I guess one thing I'm learning here is that there can be many pitfalls with DCC if you don't know what you're doing! .... :confused:
 
Trainman 864 said:
Wow! - thanks for that timely warning Phil - I guess one thing I'm learning here is that there can be many pitfalls with DCC if you don't know what you're doing! .... :confused:
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It probably won't 'kill' your loco, but the motor is 'doing something' (hence the noise)..
I find some motors (not necessarily LGB) get quite warm under these conditions.

Another point:
Many people also set their Central Stations for the maximum they can supply from first-purchase, when this is not necessary..
With the Massoth (for example) you can set the maximum currnt the CS will supply before 'tripping out', and also the length of time of a fault before the CS trips-out.
I would certainly reduce the output current until you find you are drawing near the limit you have set.
 
Trainman 864 said:
Wow! - thanks for that timely warning Phil - I guess one thing I'm learning here is that there can be many pitfalls with DCC if you don't know what you're doing! .... :confused:
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LGB used to say that it did no harm (presumably LGB Locomotives on LGB MTS) we used to run all sorts of non DCC Locomotives (but only Bachman and LGB as I remember) on the Rushchbahn, one at a time of course. Sometimes leaving one LGB Loco on for a pretty full day of operating. But as Phil says I never liked that wine! But none were ever harmed.
JonD
 
Agree Jon - LGB used to state that you could run their analogue locos on DCC. However Piko, who use a different motor, suggest you fit a decoder before using on DCC.
I also agree with Phil - run on DCC a bit, OK, but don't leave it standing alone buzzing.
 
Umm... I'm posting this for the benefit of the less experienced people reading this. There IS a way to give almost analog power to a stock DC loco on a DCC layout, but the wording of the sentence could be misleading.

The technique is called "pulse stretching", although fewer systems support this... and it is not pure DC, but the DCC signal is changed from the standard symmetric DCC square wave (equal positive and negative pulse widths) to asymmetric, where when going forwards, you make the positive pulse much longer than the negative pulse.

This usually causes extra motor heating, and the operation is noisy.

So you can run an analog loco on a DCC layout PROVIDING you have pulse stretching in your DCC command station.

Also note that when doing this, ONLY one loco on the layout at a time.

NCE discontinued this feature years ago.

Greg

p.s. a DC loco placed on a DCC layout will buzz and not move, different buzzing than buzzing while moving on DCC with pulse stretching, and different again from a "DC" pack with pulse width modulation which can also cause buzzing.
 
Greg Elmassian said:
In Europe the dark side seems to refer to going to DCC, in the main US forums, it refers to going to battery power.

Color me confused.

Greg
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The meaning is defined by Wikipedia ....

Dark side is the portion of the Earth or other planetary body, characterized by darkness that faces away and opposite to the direction of sunlight/starlight as defined by the 'solar terminator' line.

I think the confusion comes in popular culture when the subjective nature of it's use has come to represent a percieved threat to a larger, perhaps dying order, by a younger more agressive one - no doubt influenced to some extent by the 'Star Wars' franchise .... :)

Long established groups of traditional track power enthusiasts in Europe see a potential threat to their dominance by the expanding group of people adopting the advances being made in DCC and battery technologies.

In the US stock tends to be larger and so it's easier to install battery and R/C equipment - and the tracks are longer with increased cleaning and maintenance requirements - so there is an attraction towards the so called 'dark side' of battery power.

Track power people the world over tend to refer to the much smaller group of live steam enthusiasts as the 'dark side' because of track contamination, greater operational demands of the loco's - and the cost! .... :)
 
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"The Force" is like duct tape.... it has a Light side, a Dark side and it holds the universe together..... ;)

I've often referred to live steam as "The Dark Arts*", with coal-firing being the Even Darker Arts!

Jon.

(* with a nod to J.K. Rowling's lawyers.....)
 
Neil Robinson said:
I also endorse Mark and he is my first choice, not only for price but also service.
However the decoder in question is showing as temporarily out of stock and I strongly suspect the price will have to increase with new stock..
A pulse generator may also be needed at £26 (maybe more as one type is also temporarily out of stock). In addition there's P&P.
Some may also advise changing the 5V bulbs and smoke unit, further increasing the cost.
Personally I'm happier if a project ends up being under rather than over budget so I'll maintain my original estimate.
Click to expand...

Neil, I am afraid that you are correct and price increases are inevitable. ESU process will rise immediately (forced by the distributor) and Massoth/Champex process as and when based upon the EUR/GBP exchange rate. I do not think that I have increased the price of any Massoth decoder since I started the business back in 2012.
 
OK, two pence worth in response to the original question.
There are a number of systems out there and I suspect limited experience of any one person having had all of them.

To run on DCC then locos will need to be chipped (and potentially have sound installed). The words DCC ready do not necessarily mean DCC easy from an installation viewpoint.

I'd look at what you intend running. LGB MTS and the PIKO systems run at 5 amps 9although you can add boosters). USA trains locomotives (I only have one) appear to be power hungry (say 2 to 2.5 amps). I cannot comment on Aristocrat. LGB, Bachmann and PIKO trains are much less power hungry. Bachmann DCC trains are designed to run on their own propriety system which I think runs at 18 Volts - running these on 20 or 22 volt systems is not good for them. Using a decoder designed for the higher voltages will not cause the problems - so buying Bachmann DCC equipped locomotives - depending upon what system you eventually chose could be expensive as you may have to replace the decoders.

There is a very limited upgrade path - almost none - and cross compatibility between control equipment. To repeat an earlier comment decoders in trains should generally work cross platform.

The LGB "red box" MTS system is now obsolete. It can be bought second hand and will run locomotives and control points. If it breaks I suspect repair facilities are now non existent.

Consider if you want to run wirelessly rather than have the controller tethered to the central station. Certainly some years ago the NCE Powercab wireless frequency was not legal in the UK (and I believe also Europe). I'd had my stuff for about a month when I went wireless because I kept tripping over the cables.

The PIKO system shares some similarities with the Massoth system. The Navigators are interchangeable. The PIKO central station from a functional viewpoint operates as a stripped down MAssoth system. That does not mean that all components are interchangeable or will work, and trying to do something like use the massoth computer feedback module in a PIKO central station will blow the central station.

The Massoth system offers variable amps and volts and a whole host of other features. It is however the most expensive of the systems I have mentioned.

I have no experience of the LGB CS system or other systems e.g. Bachmann Dynamis, Zimo, Roco etc.

So, what do I personally use ?

Probably four years ago I started with the then LGB digital starter set (MTS 2 and the yellow shunter and black steam locomotive) as I had no legacy equipment. For me the sum of the parts made them good value. I personally do not feel that the subsequent LGB digital starter sets represent such good value. I went wireless within a month as I kept tripping over the tethered cable - the central station was kept inside the house, whilst the track etc was on the patio.

Some time later I got a second hand MTS 3 central station and a Massoth Navigator. This gave me access to the 16 functions on some decoders and therefore "all" of the sounds. (The LGB handsets will only cover 8 functions). With the Navigator and MTS 3 you also get "long addressing" - up to four digits, whereas the LGB handset will only cover up to 32 locomotives and 128 points/signals. I have yet to investigate the advanced functions of the Navigator such as "consisting" - running two (or more trans) double headed, or route selection.

Because it was what local people were using I bought a second hand PIKO system when I saw one to avoid compatibility issues or any complaints (the Massoth Navigator works fine with the PIKO system). I believe this runs at 20 volts rather than the 22 (or is it 24) of the MTS system. I still have my MTS 2 and 3 gear because to sell it on would get me peanuts while it provides a back up system in the event of failure.

My treat one day is probably to have a full Massoth system because of the variable voltage and rampage and other (e.g. computer control) /shuttle system) aspects - but then my upgrade path is partly determined by already having Navigators (control handsets) that will work with that central station. Why do I not have one now? The pure and simple answer is expense.
 
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