Important notice re: certifying live-steam gas tanks testing.

:devil:
You could always buy a brand-new certified loco.. Run it for a year at exhibitions, then sell it on, and buy a new one!! :(:eek::giggle::giggle:
:devil:

I am sure the manufacturers would approve! :think:
 
I can’t imagine that a Roundhouse boiler would do much harm if it do blow. The end caps are likely to be the weakest part and these are covered. One end cap would probably just blow with a big phut, a quantity of steam would escape and immediately expand and cool and it would all be over. Perhaps Roundhouse could deliberately blow one in one of their locos to show exactly what happens but I’m pretty sure it would be very close to a non event.

The loco gas containers are much stronger than the containers the gas comes in so the only possible problem there is a joint leaking which you would hear.

Perhaps someone could do a proper risk assessment. The biggest danger with live steamers is going too fast, coming off the track and hitting a little one with a very hot and heavy piece of loco.
 
It is unlikely the ends would blow. An indepedent test was done some time ago and the boiler "ballooned" as per the photos. Copper is a very soft and maleable metal.

During the course of the test the centre flue collapsed, which would have extinguished the gas burner in a loco, so you cannot achieve this by just running the loco even if you were daft enough to remove both the safety valve and pressure gauge and fit blanking plugs instead. Considerable pumping was required before the total collapse of the flue and the pressure in the piece started to rise again.

The ballooning occurred around 600 psi and the boiler eventually failed around 1,000 psi when the joint around one of the bushes failed and as you said, the steam escaped quickly and the pressure was released down to zero. I think if you were daft enough to remove the pressure gauge and safety valve, you might notice a very fat and distorted loco long before anything else happened.

boiler 1.png

Boiler 2.png

I do not know of anyone who has tested a gas tank to destruction. Because the tank is in close proximity to the gas burner and a rather hot boiler, the pressure in the tank can rise to 200psi, (hence why you can't refill it on a hot loco) however, the force exerted on the tank is not just by the pressure alone, but a combination of pressure and surface area (volume). - (hence the 3 bar litre limit on boilers) The internal volume of the gas tank is very small (0.03 litres) and because of the gauge of metal used and the tanks general construction, it can easily withstand significantly higher pressures.

But as I keep saying, all commercially made boilers and tanks are tested at manufacture so there is no need to re-test and its pretty pointless to re-test at 1.5 times normal pressure.
 
G-force1 said:
One thing I cant see is any of our three boiler inspectors standing about all day testing all my boilers in one go (or me or that matter). The big one takes almost an hour to get to blowing off, and about the same to run down. The next about 40 mins. each way. The next two I've never steamed yet, but I suspect a good half hour each, each way. That doesn't include hydros either. Then the little ones, which at least you can just swich the gas off and let them cool on their own, but easily a full day. Which means different days for different locos, and being able to get an available boiler inspector, remembering that everybody (about 90) in the club is in the same boat. As I said it's already more effort than it's worth. The system will be overloaded. Perhaps that is the ploy, we should swamp it, so they cant cope, then stand back and see what happens!
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G-force1 said:
That is exactly what I do now. The small stuff hasn't been tested, and wont be. Of the other gauges the 7 1/4" I have no choice, or not run, though one is currently mothballed, the stationary and the 3 1/2" will be shelf queens forever more.

As I said in a previous post, we policed completely successfully ourselves for over 90 years. What happened?
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G-force1 said:
That is exactly what I do now. The small stuff hasn't been tested, and wont be. Of the other gauges the 7 1/4" I have no choice, or not run, though one is currently mothballed, the stationary and the 3 1/2" will be shelf queens forever more.

As I said in a previous post, we policed completely successfully ourselves for over 90 years. What happened?
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Unfortunately someone has found a money making wheeze
 
I expect to see a marked dimunition of exhibitors of little steam stuff, like the guy who can often be seen at one of our local shows, having the time of his life with half a dozen Mamods of one kind or another driving lineshafts and workshop machines.

It's people like him that are the friendly face of steam engines, now an endangered species.

tac
 
So for those of us who like to show off our teeny steam stuff in public, on tracks that can show them to their best advantage, all this foistment [new word, there] is NOT voluntary, but compulsory. TBH, the sight of my Beyer-Garratt with a good load behind looks faintly ridiculous on my tiny roundy-round backyard track, and although, as we've seen, there ARE private tracks where it can strut its stuff and look good, mine isn't one of them. One of my Gauge 1 locos with ten coaches behind it, is outright pathetic.

Whether we like it or not, this is going to have a HUGE effect on the sales of live steam models of all kinds. In this country at least.

tac

Edited to replace ignorance with fact.
 
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tac foley said:
OK, Gentlefolk. let me see if I have it right, before I go firing a note off to the 16mm Association.

ALL of these new 'regulations' covering our little engines are, in the words of the 16mm Association, completely voluntary. This does not gel with the meaning of the word 'regulation', which means 'rule'. If it were to be voluntary, then it would be called voluntary, with the proviso that it is 'recommended'.

However, IF you run your locomotive at a venue to which the public are invited to be present, and you have NOT carried out any of these new regulations/certifications, and something amiss takes place with either pressure vessel, you are NOT covered by the insurance that is provided by your membership to either the 16mm Association or the G1MRA (I'm in both), or by the site/venue insurance. This, presumably, does not include people touching the hot engine, or getting clothes sprayed with oily priming - both of which have happened in recent years, I'm told, in spite of widely displayed warning notices not to touch the HOT engines.

Add to this that you will have to take out your own insurance if you run a small Mamod/Wilesco/Marklin/Jensen/Regner/Bing - whatever - stationary engine, or any steam-powered device that you have built yourself at a public venue, the same as if you were exhibiting a full-size traction engine, or stationary engine of any kind.

So for those of us who like to show off our teeny steam stuff in public, on tracks that can show them to their best advantage, all this foistment [new word, there] is NOT voluntary, but compulsory. TBH, the sight of my Beyer-Garratt with a good load behind looks faintly ridiculous on my tiny roundy-round backyard track, and although, as we've seen, there ARE private tracks where it can strut its stuff and look good, mine isn't one of them. One of my Gauge 1 locos with ten coaches behind it, is outright pathetic.

Whether we like it or not, this is going to have a HUGE effect on the sales of live steam models of all kinds. In this country at least.

tac
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Not quite right tac

The 16mm (and G Scale) public liability insurance document still clearly states, and I quote directly from it: d) the vessel concerned is a small boiler namely that it has a capacity of not more than 3 bar litres or the vessel concerned is a gas tank with a capacity of not more than 250ml when cover shall be in force whether or not a valid thorough examination certificate has been issued.

The problem only occurs if the exhibition manager uses the 16mm guidelines to ask for certificates before allowing anything to run. This has happened to me and I declined the invitation as a result.
 
tac foley said:
Whether we like it or not, this is going to have a HUGE effect on the sales of live steam models of all kinds. In this country at least.
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It will be interesting to see if that comes to pass, but I doubt it.

I cannot find any mention of the word "regulation", only "code". These codes are NOT the Law Of The Land policed by some government authority, and anybody can still buy and operate a commercially-available steam loco as they see fit (at their own risk) without becoming involved in what the codes say.
 
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Don't forget that one of the principal parties to the discussions and decisions , along with the Model reps, was the INSURANCE Companies. I certain not everything has yet been re-written.
 
I’m glad I’m no longer the Secretary of my local Allotment Association. Just after I stepped down, we had a visit from the local authority (our landlords) H&S brigade. As a result, the site is now covered in warning notices and we had to get rid of several of the barrels of fertilisers that we sold loose at a fraction of the garden centre price. Given the slight risk of sticking a garden fork through one’s foot I’m amazed we are still allowed to work the plots without supervision. There was even a suggestion that we shouldn’t work on the site unless at least one other plotholder was there... it is true that since around 1960 two very elderly chaps collapsed and died on our seven-acre site while gardening, but at least they were doing what they enjoyed and probably would have been as happy going that way as any other.
 
My45G said:
Not quite right tac

The 16mm (and G Scale) public liability insurance document still clearly states, and I quote directly from it: d) the vessel concerned is a small boiler namely that it has a capacity of not more than 3 bar litres or the vessel concerned is a gas tank with a capacity of not more than 250ml when cover shall be in force whether or not a valid thorough examination certificate has been issued.

The problem only occurs if the exhibition manager uses the 16mm guidelines to ask for certificates before allowing anything to run. This has happened to me and I declined the invitation as a result.
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@Rhos Helyg L W and My45G - Thanks for that clarification, Sirs. I'l hold off the snotogram as result of the re-readment. If the head honcho of the society to which I have belonged for the last 28 years calls me on this, I might be looking for another place to run my little trains, as well as my 7 1/4" quarter-scale 'Harlech Castle'.

tac
16mm Association
G Scale Society
G1MRA
Southern Federation of model Engineers
 
Tac

Would you by any chance have any photo's of the 7 1/4" beastie, please? :)
 
tac foley said:
@Rhos Helyg L W and My45G - Thanks for that clarification, Sirs. I'l hold off the snotogram as result of the re-readment. If the head honcho of the society to which I have belonged for the last 28 years calls me on this, I might be looking for another place to run my little trains, as well as my 7 1/4" quarter-scale 'Harlech Castle'.

tac
16mm Association
G Scale Society
G1MRA
Southern Federation of model Engineers
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I am sure that your 7 1/4" Harlech Castle would be more than welcome at the Riverside Miniature Railway in St.Neots if you need another or even iccasionally different place to run it.
 
Have been watching this post with interest !!! If I was Roundhouse or Accucraft I would be rather annoyed at said persons of 16mm association they have to go through a lot of stringent hoops to sell their products and all components are thoroughly tested . I smell some one is making a fast buck through scaremongering !!!! ITS ALL ADVISORY !!! NOT LAW !!!! IF you don,t like my comment tough but that s fact !!!
 
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