Live Steam Accucraft 2 cyl shay and Climax bogies very stiff springs

[beavercreek]

I recently added a live steam Climax and a wood burner 2 cylinder shay to my LS geared loco fleet.
They tested fine on rollers when I was purchasing them.
When I was testing them on my layout they seemed to have problems with the track in certain places.
I inspected the locos just in case there was anything that I had not noticed when first looking them over.
All was well visually.

I decided to run one of my other locos, a LS 2 cylinder shay (this one is an oil burner model).
It went around the track many times with no problem at all.

I took the new Climax over to one spot where it had derailed and noticed that it was rocking showing track that was out of true.
I took my older shay over to the same spot and noticed that it had enough play in the bogies (or bogie springs) to make allowance of the slight track imperfection.
Same was apparent in the one other 'tricky' place.... but the older shay did not rock as its bogies again had enough 'play' to allow for the track.

I checked the bogie springs on the two new locos and they do seem stiff and there is little to no horizontal to vertical play (pitch and yaw)

Before someone says that the track should be amended, it is fixed with glued ballast and as other locos have no problem, it is not an area that I want to muck about with if possible.

Has anyone had a similar problems with Accucraft Shay or Climax bogies (live steam or electric)?
Would 'softer' springs help..is there a source for matching size etc?
How can more bogie play be introduced?

 

[maxi-model]

I had an initial problem with my 3 cyl' lve steam Accy' Shay. It slowed and intermitently derailed on a certain flexi-track originated curve, not a constant radius, on my line. It turned out it was a tad tight at one point and needed easing to fix. I put it down to there being insufficiant sideplay in the Shay's axles and their relative wheelbase in each bogie.

I note with my own Climax, bought new, there is no independent sideplay for the pairs of bogie axles and negligable, virtually non-existant pitch & yaw in the bogie mountings themselves as supplied. Mine runs fine in this configuration. I doubt then it is a fault with loco as supplied. I regret it might be time to break out the chisel and spirit level Mike. Max

 

[maxi-model]

Just taken a close look at mine. The bogies are mounted without springs and the bogie and loco frame have a flat plate interface. When the mounting screw is in place and tightened up there is just enough play to allow free rotational movement of the bogie but little or no pitch and yaw. So now you have a reference Mike.

How you introduce sufficiant pitch and yaw to suit this portion of your line, with this design, I would not know how to advise. If you slacken off the bolt you run the risk of it dropping out while running. You could machine a longer bolt to allow the introduction of a spring but that may foul the drive shaft. If you do it in such a way as to avoid this the only way would be to interpose a spring between the bearing plates which would raise the level of the main loco frame and body and mess with the geometry of the drive, not to mentionthe loco's stability. Sorry I cannot offer more positive advise. I'm sure there is a solution. Max

 

[beavercreek]

Hi Max
It is interesting that my 3 cylinder shay and my older 2 cylinder shay do not derail at these two places but these two 'new' locos do.
The 3 cylinder shay was 'as new' and unsteamed when I bought her (and she has done a fair amount of steaming) but the 2 cylinder one certainly has a few miles on her (she was well used when I got her) but they both have never derailed on my line.

My new Climax (it had only been test steamed when I bought her) and the recent 2 cylinder shay (which is well used) have both shown problems with 'stiff' bogies/springs.

The Climax bogie has side springs which are pretty stiff (but so are the ones on my 'older' locos). This I tested by pressing down on bar that goes side to side in the bogie.

The central screw that holds the bogie to the frame (on the 'new' Climax and the 'new' 2 cyl shay) also has a spring that is very stiff, and, as you say, does not allow any pitch and yaw when screwed tight.
Perhaps a slightly less strong 'central' spring would allow a bit of play or maybe even a small width washer between the bogie and frame.
I will try to find some springs which match the dimension of the original central ones.
But first I am going to try a small washer......

Still cannot fathom out why two locos are fine and two are not...... it cannot be down to 'newness' as the recent, but definitely 'old' wood burner 2 cyl shay shows the same symptoms as the recent 'very new' climax........... But my 3 cyl shay (which is still pretty new in steaming terms) and 'old' 2 cyl shay do not have any problem whatsoever.......

Weird science

 

[maxi-model]

While on the Climax there appears to be a working spring assembly on each bogie, these offer no springing effect to either the axles or bogie. The axles and their bearings are fixed mounted in the bogie frames and the bogie frame's movement is limited by any play allowed by its pivot/mounting bolt. Any springs you see, working or otherwise, only seem to have a cosmetic purpose.

The only reason I can see you may have a disparity in performance, between your geared locos might be down to the differences in the designs and tollerances of the components that interact with the track. Max

 

[Rhinochugger]

Mike, I can't comment on the specific locos, but some generalities.

Max's point about axle side play is valid - I've commented the same about bogie rolling stock, that if the axles run a bit dry, the bogie will de-rail.

The other thing that I find with Accucraft rolling stock is that usually the bogie pivot spring is too stiff - I usually cut a couple of coils off the spring on each bogie pivot whenever I acquire a new wagon

it'd be some very rough track that caused a bogie to rock by more than the flange depth as the wheelbase is so short so my suspicion would be bogie riding behaviour rather than axle riding

 

[beavercreek]

Hi Rhino and Max
I have just put the Climax onto her back (ooh err) and had a real in depth look at the bogies axles etc.
I always lubricate Live Steamers well so the dry axle certainly ain't the problem.
Indeed the side springs are purely cosmetic as you said Max.
I checked the axle side play and there is a lot of side play on the climax...much more than the shays or any loco that I have encountered. But that is a design feature. Apparently there were some Climaxes of the production run, where the axles actually travelled sideways too far and fell out of the journal boxes. The cosmetic brakes do rub the wheels flanges if they slide sideways too far.

I checked the wheel back to back gauge and outside flange gauge and all is as it should be but....
I did notice that on one bogie, one axle was not set to exactly the same as the other so there was maybe 0.2 to 0.3mm stagger.
The axles are joined by the geared rod that holds both beveled gear systems and this holds the axles in position relative to each other.. It looks like the rod could be out of true. The rod is rigid steel so not easily bent. The only thing that could be up is that the gear assembly on one axle is just not aligned correctly.

Not sure that this would cause the derail as the other 'new to my ownership' loco also derailed and it has totally different axle/gear set up being a shay.

I will definitely think about the cutting of a couple of coils, Rhino, if I cannot find some replacement springs that area shade 'softer'.

 

[maxi-model]

Note - when shipped from the factory the Climax bogies are not mounted. The main body of the loco, sans bogies, is in a foam supported jig/cradle that then has the usual heavy tape strapping applied. Why ? I suspect it is due to the fact there is no means of "shock absorption" (springs) between the wheels, bogies and the heavy bulk of the rest of the locomotive. How was yours shipped to you ? Just a thought. Max

 

[Rhinochugger]

So if there are no springs on the bogie pivot, can you wind the fixing screw off a half turn or so to give the bogies a bit of wobble

I am an expert on badly laid track but my trains manage to stay on it

 

[beavercreek]

Note - when shipped from the factory the Climax bogies are not mounted. The main body of the loco, sans bogies, is in a foam supported jig/cradle that then has the usual heavy tape strapping applied. Why ? I suspect it is due to the fact there is no means of "shock absorption" (springs) between the wheels, bogies and the heavy bulk of the rest of the locomotive. How was yours shipped to you ? Just a thought. Max

The past owner had it new, did not do anything to it, shipped it as it came form the factory to Mike Darby (chuffed-2 bits) to be RC-ed. So I expect Mike put it all together. It was then shipped (I suspect with bogies on) back to the guy who I bought it from and he did not use steam it at all.

So if there are no springs on the bogie pivot, can you wind the fixing screw off a half turn or so to give the bogies a bit of wobble

Backing off the bogie attaching screw would be the simple way, but having dome a similar thing with an electric shay, back in the day, only to have the screw work its way loose, I do not want to hazard the same practice with a live steamer...

Concerning the slight out of alignment of the two axles, I am going to investigate to see if i can loosen the gear assembly on one axle and realign it..... wish me luck....

 

[Rhinochugger]

Backing off the bogie attaching screw would be the simple way, but having dome a similar thing with an electric shay, back in the day, only to have the screw work its way loose, I do not want to hazard the same practice with a live steamer...

Loc-tite - the blue stuff

 

[beavercreek]

Well..... I have had both bogies off and tested the running characteristics. Both are showing the signs of needing some running in as they are not totally free running in as much as new gears need a bit of 'wearing in'.
There is actually not a spring on the bogie to frame fixing bolt and the screw is a lot shorter than others from the Accucraft geared loco stable. That would explain the 'fixed' feeling of the lack of play.

BUT...Max
The bogie side springs are not cosmetic but are totally functional and are what is supposed to help the bogie to accommodate 'undulations' in the track.
See the photo where I am compressing them
The springs are way too stiff to help so this is why the two bogies have no play at all.

I have managed to almost completely rectify the 'stagger' in the alignment of the axles but there was not a lot of tolerance and the way that the gear boxes are opposing each other does not help. The steel rod in that bogie has a very slight bend in it so it is not totally true but it does not seem to make a lot of difference except it will wear the bronze retainer a bit faster.

The incredible amount of side play in the axles is there for one reason... to allow access to the retaining bolt..interesting solution from Accucraft...though I do not think that it is the most elegant!

Bogie bolt hiding behind gearing rod



Side play... to one side



To the other..




Springs uncompressed with no pressure on bogie side


Springs compressed with pressure on bogie frame (quite a bit of pressure needed)

 

[Rhinochugger]

I'd still be tempted to fiddle with the bogie mounting first - the wheelbase of the bogie is so short that a bit of compensation isn't going to do an awful lot - I don't think it would help much on my roughly aligned track

I only have a 3-cylinder Shay, which has not shown such wayward tendencies - but I'm not sure how much movement there is in the bogie suspension

Oh, the other issue is how easily does the bogies slide frame move up and down in its guides? (given the harsh spring rates, is it possible to check that on the recovery?)

 

[beavercreek]

I'd still be tempted to fiddle with the bogie mounting first - the wheelbase of the bogie is so short that a bit of compensation isn't going to do an awful lot - I don't think it would help much on my roughly aligned track

I only have a 3-cylinder Shay, which has not shown such wayward tendencies - but I'm not sure how much movement there is in the bogie suspension

My 3 cylinder and old 2 cylinder shays also behave impeccably so perhaps they have 'better' play and/or suspension set up.
It is interesting that the 'new to me' Climax and the, 'new to me', 2 cylinder well used shay seem to have the same problem but my original 3 and 2 cyl shays do not mmmmmm

Oh, the other issue is how easily does the bogies slide frame move up and down in its guides? (given the harsh spring rates, is it possible to check that on the recovery?)

It is hard to tell as the pressure needed to compress the bogie springs, sort of covers any resistance from the guides.


The Climax bogie bolt is quite short and does not have the amount of thread that the shay does. If I back it off a half turn or so it will still have to be wholly into the receiving thread or it could undermine the strength of the fixture. I shall try to look to see how much 'extra' thread there is on the bolt when crewed firmly home.
A half turn should not make any difference but I do not want to compromise anything here!
I was hoping that there might be enough thread to insert a narrow washer between the bogie and frame but it looks like that is not a good idea....

 

[maxi-model]

BUT...Max
The bogie side springs are not cosmetic but are totally functional and are what is supposed to help the bogie to accommodate 'undulations' in the track.
See the photo where I am compressing them
The springs are way too stiff to help so this is why the two bogies have no play at all.

I stand corrected. Pushing up rather than down. Max

 

[beavercreek]

I stand corrected. Pushing up rather than down. Max

ain't it always the way.......

 

[PhilP]

Looking at the last picture showing the underside of the bogies...
The bottom right wheel does not look to be square on the axle??

 

[Rhinochugger]

Looking at the last picture showing the underside of the bogies...
The bottom right wheel does not look to be square on the axle??

Nah, it's round

 

[beavercreek]

Looking at the last picture showing the underside of the bogies...
The bottom right wheel does not look to be square on the axle??

It is just the lens causing the distortion Phil. It was taken very close using an iphone.
I think I may have noticed a wheel that was that out of true.......

 

[PhilP]

It is just the lens causing the distortion Phil. It was taken very close using an iphone.
I think I may have noticed a wheel that was that out of true.......

I guessed it was not that bad, especially as it was said the back-to-backs had been checked..