Milton Loco Works burner- we want... information!

Matt, are you restricted to poker type burners? Or is there headroom to introduce radiant typee, (pointing down the flue?? or in some form of inverted trough).....using some of Chris's excellent work???? Oh, this could go on for ages!
 
There is *some* room. I don't think you'd get an optimum radiant type in, but you'd certainly get a fairly effective one in. However I'm beginning to think I may have already bitten off more than I can chew here! The good news is I can discuss the theory with example calculations, as opposed to having to do a full theoretical analysis. I think I'll just be looking at standard, Milton and meshed burners.
 
Best not to bite off too much, its is just an undergraduate dissertation, not a PhD thesis!
 
<p>This looks ideal for the Taguchi method of determining which variables have an influence. Have you come across it Matt? If not let me know and I can probably put you in touch with someone who can help you design the experiments. Some of the stuff on the internet I just checked is very theoretical.</p>
 
I have indeed come across Taguchi methods Graham. Good idea! Even if I don't use it to it's full potential (I won't, I'm only really looking at changing two or three things) it's definitely something useful to put in. I hadn't even thought of that, so thankyou.
 
Doh, I just worked out who Chris Harnett is...

tinkle

tinkle

tinkle

penny drops a very long way

Hi Chris
 
Even I'd managed to work that out Graham, although it did take a little while!
 
I ended up reading up on Taguchi for about an hour at work this afternoon after reading Graham's post - oops - reminded me how much I had forgotten, so to speak!! Stats always did grind me down rather.....nothings changed in 30 years!!!!!

Nowadays it's all 'lean' principles and such like I have to deal with - thank you Toyota/Toyoda, for nowt! Ruined terminal 5 apparently.....I like to remind my bosses of this.... :rolf:

Burners.....ah, yes, the topic......what about some form of baffling internally, to slow the gas flow before the orifices? (In absence of Chris's trumpet to do so...... :D ).
 
A few push fitted cross tubes of copper?

(One of the suggested solutions to stop the steam pipes melting in the Garratt, supposed to cool the exhaust gases at the end of the flue)
 
It's the same burner Tac!

I agree, the cheap and nasty one is fine for the basic ones but they should do something better for the big beasties.
 
I agree tac, don't mind paying a few bob more for a quieter burner in the first place - but the production engineering seems to place more emphasis on costings rather than outcomes.

Interesting about the Earl/Countesses though - going back a ways to when we were discussing it - I can't believe it's quieter because of a tiny bit of lagging, there must be something else at play. :thinking: Be it dimensions of air holes, jet size, flue/smokebox volumes.......something would appear to be slowing down the gas flow.....

Super model too - I was bowled over by the one I saw.
 
Thankyou very much for that Chris. Possibly the most useful post I'll ever read on a forum!

Lots to think on.

You are of course dead right, trying to improve the burner in a very basic single flue boiler is a bit like re- shoeing a dying horse, but it's keeping me amused for now- this year the boiler, next year the world!

I'll have to see if Tag still has a Countess visiting, it'd be interesting to have a good look over one, see if it's owt visible.
 
Great post Chris, you obviously made that after a great deal of thought - instead of going to bed!

I think the limitations of the single flue boiler we are basically stuck with, for exaclty the reasons you describe - cost, and great cost, not a few bob. In the meantime, if the concentration of experience and knowledge that seems to be gathering here helps Matt work towards an improvement of our current lot, then it's a win. :thumbup: I'm still amazed how well your Spamcan burner works in a draughted environment, given the amount of variables that introduces, it's one hell of an achievement. :applause:

Now, about oil firing...... :D ....that's NOISY!
 
Dare I say it I'm very unlikely to achieve anything "new". What I'm hoping to do is prove or otherwise that the MLW and mesh burners do offer an improvement, both in the real world and under experimental conditions (oh look, that means I get to play trains, erm, I mean test, as part of my degree...) and also to be able to explain, with a degree of accuracy and with example equations (as opposed to a complete theoretical analysis, although that's still a possibilty if I use a CFD programme) why this is so. As I'll have to get the workshop guys to make up the burners (apparently students aren't allowed to do their own thing with the lathes) I'll probably try and get them to make up a "standard" Milton style one and one with varying hole sizes and and spacings as suggested by Chris to see if there is any difference. I'll also use mesh on the standard burner, and on all will try a bunsen style inlet air regulator. Nothing radical, but at least we should have some form of numerical explanation for the behaviour of these things.
 
Hells bells, engineers aren't allowed to use lathes......words fail me.

I feel a rant coming on ......
 
<p>
New Haven Neil - 26/11/2009 8:04 PM I ended up reading up on Taguchi for about an hour at work this afternoon after reading Graham's post - oops - reminded me how much I had forgotten, so to speak!! Stats always did grind me down rather.....nothings changed in 30 years!!!!! Nowadays it's all 'lean' principles and such like I have to deal with - thank you Toyota/Toyoda, for nowt! Ruined terminal 5 apparently.....I like to remind my bosses of this.... :rolf: Burners.....ah, yes, the topic......what about some form of baffling internally, to slow the gas flow before the orifices? (In absence of Chris's trumpet to do so...... :D ).
Click to expand...
</p><p>Well I just have to wade in to defend Toyota Neil. There is so much abuse of the "lean" terms which people use as catch phrases without any grasp of what they really mean. Sounds like your bosses have been at the wrong end of some consultants.</p><p>I worked for 15 years with Toyota, sometimes quite closely and they are the very best company I have ever worked with and by a very big margin.</p><p>And putting this in the light of the current thread, the first step on a long journey to becoming leaner is to understand what customers value. Someone has put cost above value in the small scale narrow gauge live steam market. Many people appear to value a quiet loco. It seems to me a mistake to cheapen the burner at the expense of something customers value so highly. Another big mistake is to assume things are expensive to make when often they are not.</p><p>Anyway don't get me started...:yawn: </p>
 
Pull, not push...... :D

Yes, one of my bosses is full of it (insert your own definition of 'it' here!) currently, and you are right right to defend Toyota - but while I'm sure it works work well for production engineering, I personally don't see where it fits into juvenile crime management.......that's my beef, not the concept of toyoda's ideas really. We don't have a 'product,' we deal with people.

No doubt he'll have some new buzz words soon, and forget all about it.....
 
<p>
New Haven Neil - 27/11/2009 3:44 PM Hells bells, engineers aren't allowed to use lathes......words fail me. I feel a rant coming on ......
Click to expand...
</p><p>That isn't strictly true Neil, we are allowed to use them, did in the first year in fact. But they aren't massively keen on us doing so, mostly 'cos the workshop runs more or less to capacity and it makes more sense for the chaps to know what they are doing to do it. Also, they don't have to fill in armfuls of health n' safety forms...
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