Purified Di-Hydrogen Oxide.....

This topic seems to come up on a regular basis and that old myth that distilled water is the best you can get is evident again in this thread.

Without going into all the detail which is readily available on the web - the pH of distilled water can vary due to a number of factors, not the least of which is absorbtion of CO2 from the atmosphere and temperature.

After much reading about this apparently imprecise subject, I've come to the conclusion that the best solution (for me) is to use ordinary supermarket deionised water - mixed with 5% tap water here in W.Sussex.

The effect of the tap water is to quench the desire of the deionised water to replace it's lost ions - which it otherwise tries to get from the material of the boiler.

YMMV .... :)
 
Some years ago when I spoke to a guy from Roundhouse he reckoned that tap water in a soft water area was fine. Our water is soft so what is the problem with using it?
 
Hmmm.... I think this might turn into a lengthy and interesting discussion...... let me pull up a comfy chair and fetch the popcorn...... ;)

Jon.
 
I think you will find the reason for (mainly) deionised water being available, is ease of production..
So much easier to force water through the resin-filters used for this, than all that messing about boiling water and condensing it.. - Fast, cheap, less H&S issues for the producer..

When I was working in Brum, we used to top the batteries up with tap-water, as it is supposedly a soft-water area..
I had charge of some technical batteries that were over eight years old, and still good.. - Our 'on the road' kettles were not too bad for lime-scale either.. We tended to fill the (drinking) water tanks at base before departure.

If you live in a hard-water area, then any of the methods are probably better than water out of the tap?
 
There are various problems with water when you boil it. Ph, deposits and free ions - what ever they might be.
Soft water areas will have low levels of dissolved clag in it (such as calciums) so is not too bad.
The problem with boiling water is that as it reduces in volume, anything that does not boil off gets concentrated. So acidity/alkalinity will increase and dissolved calciums (and other bits) will no longer be so. As for free ions, I gather that they take tiny bits from the material of your boiler.

So you ideally want a water that has no dissolved crud, is ph neutral and has few free ions.

Deionised water has been neutralised by ionising filter beds and the ADDITION of further chemicals, it is often acidic as it grabs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. It is considered to be corrosive. By it's name, it should not contain may free ions.

Distilled water will leave the crud behind as it boils off in the still. It should be ph neutral as it is pure water and I assume it does not have many free ions.It can gain some acidity from atmospheric CO2

As an aside - very few water filters are anywhere near good enough to remove dissolved solids (crud) and they wont neutralise ph.

Finally - the possible problem with dehumidifiers, frost from freezers and rain water is the contaminents they may have picked up before you get at them - particularly rain water which is often acidic.
 
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To add to that there are two kinds of water hardness, temporary and permanent, As far as I know it is the temporary one that we must beware of as that is what gets left behind in the kettle/boiler. Hence they say, if running in an unknown area, check out the brew before you steam. No joke, look in the kettle.
 
Living in an area where we have to replace our Brita kettle filters every eight or nine DAYS, I invested in a 6.5L table-top distiller unit about ten years ago. It was not cheap, but produces perfect results, as a look in the bottom of the reservoir clearly shows. We don't have a tumble drier, having only a small hut, but our daughter does. The stuff that comes out of THAT is not suitable for putting in my costy trains - maybe for putting out a fire...

I'll trust my distiller, thanks.

tac
 
Ahh... you guys are pikers!

What about the propensity of distilled water to eat up solder, attack brass/copper? Many appliances with boilers have warnings not to use distilled water, due to it's affinity to "become" ionized, and thus "leach" ions from soldered joints and the brass/copper of the boiler itself.

I've seen this argument swirl for a long time!

Greg
 
tac foley said:
............ I invested in a 6.5L table-top distiller unit about ten years ago. It was not cheap, but produces perfect results, as a look in the bottom of the reservoir clearly shows. ...........
I'll trust my distiller, thanks.

tac
Click to expand...

Yes but - you're only seeing the visible effect of the lack of scale build up in the reservoir.

What you not seeing is the invisible effect - if you use that water in a copper boiler - of the migration of copper ions into the water.
 
???
I thought it 'attacked' something in either the brass, or the solder.. :think::think:
???

Considering all our copper water pipes (even in soft-water areas) are not all leaking.. I would have thought the problem for 'our' size of boiler / volume of water / amount of use was negligible?

???
 
PhilP said:
???
I thought it 'attacked' something in either the brass, or the solder.. :think::think:
???

Considering all our copper water pipes (even in soft-water areas) are not all leaking.. I would have thought the problem for 'our' size of boiler / volume of water / amount of use was negligible?

???
Click to expand...

Most usually the zinc in the brass. I had it happen on my Countess with the bottom gauge frame, completely disintegrated because it was made of brass not bronze. Never did get it replaced, had to do it myself.
 
G-force1 said:
Most usually the zinc in the brass. I had it happen on my Countess with the bottom gauge frame, completely disintegrated because it was made of brass not bronze. Never did get it replaced, had to do it myself.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob.. Was pretty sure it would not be the copper..
 
Trainman 864 said:
Yes but - you're only seeing the visible effect of the lack of scale build up in the reservoir.

What you not seeing is the invisible effect - if you use that water in a copper boiler - of the migration of copper ions into the water.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean here. Basically you are telling me that using the water distilled by this distiller will damage my boilers, is that right?. The bottom of the reservoir that holds the water as it boils is left covered with a slimy crud. The heating element is underneath the reservoir and the head of the device contains a fan that condenses the steam produced back into water. The stuff that eventually comes out of the nozzle into the collector bottle is clear of that crud, since it has remained behind. You are saying that the water distilled by this method is not suitable for small steam boilers.

Or have I got it wrong?

If it's not distilling that water into something less damaging to my boilers, just what is it doing? All the instructions say that it is a distiller.

My Countess, one of the very early models, shows not the slightest trace of any kind of damage from using the water produced by my distiller, nor does my Shay - the very first 3-C Shay sold here in UK, nor my 32-year-old Aster Br01.

tac
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Ahh... you guys are pikers!

What about the propensity of distilled water to eat up solder, attack brass/copper? Many appliances with boilers have warnings not to use distilled water, due to it's affinity to "become" ionized, and thus "leach" ions from soldered joints and the brass/copper of the boiler itself.

I've seen this argument swirl for a long time!

Greg
Click to expand...

I understand your mirth at the conundrum we all seem to be facing, so perhaps you'll let us know why all manufacturers of live steam models recommend the use of distilled water, or, if the climate provides it, captured and filtered
 
Greg Elmassian said:
What about the propensity of distilled water to eat up solder, attack brass/copper? Many appliances with boilers have warnings not to use distilled water, due to it's affinity to "become" ionized, and thus "leach" ions from soldered joints and the brass/copper of the boiler itself.
Click to expand...

Hence the caveat with distilled water - not the de-ionized stuff ?

I'm in the filtered rainwater camp, pollutants non-withstanding. But I could be tempted by a T/T water distiller. Which did you purchase and where Tac ?
 
Don't know a lot about the subject, but as I will eventually get live steam I am trying to learn. My understanding of this thread is there are two type of water in discussion Distilled water and De-ionized water, and the lay person often considers these similar, but they are not:
Distilled water is the captures water evaporate that is then condensed, and if done correctly should not contain any chemical or particular contaminates, however, Distilled Water has the propensity to absorb Carbon Dioxide from the atmosphere and will gradually become acidic over time if left in an open container.
De-ionized water is water that has had almost all of its mineral ions removed, such as cations like sodium, calcium, iron, and copper, and anions such as chloride and sulfate, this will attack your boiler, in a bit to re-ionize its self, which is why it is NOT recommended.

 
Pretty close Jimmy. All water can absorb CO2 not just distilled. Kept in a closed container, it is not a problem, you'll use it all before that happens to any noticeable extent. De-ionised MAY attack the boiler, or more likely the fittings, if they are not made of bronze. De-ionised is filtered and if the filters are good and efficient it still shouldn't cause any problems, certainly in the short term, but can you be sure they have been changed at the correct intervals????? It could be expensive to assume they have been.

Acidity (PH) is a whole different ball game, and even after forty years of playing with these things I still don't have a definitive answer on what is ideally correct, and that will suit me. Some say neutral, some slightly acid, and some prefer slightly alkaline. How many of us in this scale bother to test the PH? Virtually none I'd guess. The bigger boys with copper boilers still almost never, but those with steel boilers almost everyone. They almost all use additives (boiler treatment) to correct it to their preferred level. One of the problems is that the boiler water PH can change as the day/use wears on, so testing tends to be ongoing until a pattern has emerged. Boiler treatment is usually added on initial fill and more can be added as required.

What is more important is not to over-worry the situation, occasionally will do no harm.
 
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