Suggestions for a replacement for my MTS2 DCC System

[jonh]

Hi all,

I have one of those "significant" birthdays coming up, and have decided to use it as an excuse to replace my ageing MTS2 DCC system.

This begs the obvious question of what to replace it with?

This is where my problems start, to my mind there are the more obvious replacements like Massoth and Marklin's own CS3, and then there's the less obvious systems by Lenz, Digitrax, Zimo, Roco to name but a few, who may incorrectly (by me at least) be more associated with the smaller gauges and so tarnished (again by me) with the fear that they'll just go up in a puff of smoke struggling to cope with the higher amps, then there's the financial aspects, regrettably even though it's a special birthday, I don't have a bottomless pit of money to spend, so the likes of a Zimo MX10 system is probably out of the question, and also so is a Massoth one for much the same reason, as if I got my sums right (highly improbable given my maths skills ) that looks to be going north of £1100 for a fully working brand new system.

So I need help (no change there I hear you all shout) to find a suitable affordable replacement, that will also meet my future needs as failing a Lottery win I'm unlikely to change it again!

So to help with your suggestions (I hope), some details of what locos I have and some ideas of what I'd like to achieve in the future.

All my Locos are LGB, I have 8 0-4-0 locos (all Kleine Dickie's ooer missus), the largest loco's on the fleet being a Zillertalbahn U Class and the LGB track cleaning loco, and last but no-means least a Brekina VW Kombi, though I have evil desires for at least one OBB 2095 Whizzy Cranks at some point so ultimately two motor loco running may not be unexpected.

I only own 11 locos in total (so far), I doubt that all of those will be going at the same time, but I suppose I shouldn't limit myself to the number I could have running at one time if possible, particularly in light of the following..

Ultimately my goal is to have some form of fully automated line, so more than one loco running at the same time is more than distinctly possible!

My own thoughts so far...(and a tangled web those are..) As a result of owning the MTS2 I have bought a few of the DCC accessories that LGB has made, most notably several of the 55025 (four way point/switch controllers) and with an eye on my ultimate goal of some form of automation a couple each of 55070's (Feedback Modules) and 55075's (Train Detection Modules) plus one each of the Massoth replacements 8170001 (Feedback Module) and 8170501 (Train Detection Module), obviously owning this kit leans heavily on going down the Massoth route as a replacement to maintain compatibility with the LGB Feedback and Train detection modules, but as mentioned before I'm put off - perhaps wrongly? - by the cost of Massoth kit, I've also seen the Marklin/LGB CS3, having watched all of the recent Marklin Digital Club videos on You Tube, and was quite impressed by the features it seems to offer, however I also appreciate that it was probably designed primarily with the HO market in mind, so with my intended vision of a fully automated line wonder if the kit aimed at achieving automation is up to being left in the garden, never mind the extra amps going through it.. this leads on to my very limited knowledge of what else outside the Marklin/Massoth spectrum has to offer me, I'm aware that Lenz DCC has a following on the forum and also the Roco Z21, both of which are considerably cheaper than either of Marklin or Massoths offerings, and, as a result of my own meanderings through the interwebby, I recently discovered Digitrax have what to my untutored eye looks like a very good system, the 'EVOXD Evolution Express Advanced 5A/8A Duplex Radio Starter Set CE' (trips off the tongue that does) which again is cheaper than the Massoth system...and then we get into the vexed area of differing protocols like Railcom/Loconet etc..arrghh frankly I've reached overload!

Apologies for the over wordy post, it's now in what feels like about it's 40th different version, so I hope it all makes sense! I wanted to get down as much information as I could, if you feel I've missed something out, let me know, I'm only too willing to supply more info!

I'd be more than grateful to hear peoples views on what systems they use, why they went that way, and in particular from anyone on here who is using the Marklin CS3 or any of the other systems I have mentioned.. hopefully to gain a better idea of what to purchase for myself.

Cheers

Jon H

 

[Greg Elmassian]

What you have not stated is your ability/desire to get into the details of an automated system. If you start using things like Arduino boards and write programs, and use free software you can do this inexpensively, in addition the MERGE system stuff would save a lot of money and give you functionality.

BUT you are trading ease of use and ease to develop for $$

Also you do not state if your locos are limited to serial functions only on DCC, and what about sound? Are your locos fine as they sit or will you be upgrading?

Basically, reading what you say, the CS3 would probably be the easiest and most straightforward way to get to where you want, it would appear.

Greg

 

[jonh]

What you have not stated is your ability/desire to get into the details of an automated system. If you start using things like Arduino boards and write programs, and use free software you can do this inexpensively, in addition the MERGE system stuff would save a lot of money and give you functionality.

BUT you are trading ease of use and ease to develop for $$

Also you do not state if your locos are limited to serial functions only on DCC, and what about sound? Are your locos fine as they sit or will you be upgrading?

Basically, reading what you say, the CS3 would probably be the easiest and most straightforward way to get to where you want, it would appear.

Greg

Thanks Greg,

You're right, and that's in part due to the fact that I'd completely forgotten about going down the route of Arduino (or even a Raspberry Pi I suppose?), I have to admit I've looked at both, but being one of that small percentage of the male population who is colour blind, I have always shied away from anything like that, so a rather long winded way of saying probably not!

As you say trading ease of use with and ease to develop for $$

All my locos are Parallel DCC as my MTS2 is the upgraded 'P' version. I must admit to not currently be interested in upgrading to sound, so at the moment all my locos are fine as they sit, but who knows what the future holds!

Cheers

Jon

 

[dunnyrail]

Whilst you are doing your £ thoughts, remember that some of the alternatives use a smart phone or pad for driving the trains. Ok if you have something with the ability but potentially more costs if you don't. Then there is also the difficulties in using a phone in the garden, A there is sun to contend with, B do you want to watch your trains or just look at a screen?

 

[jimmielx]

Hi Jon,

I run a fully automated railway. You can see a short overview of it here.

I also talk in brief outline about the automation side of things.

I've got a load of thoughts which I look forward to penning later. I sense a long reply coming!!

 

[SevenOfDiamonds]

what to replace it with?

Have you checked out the Piko DCC System? My understanding is that it is made by Massoth, but as a "cut down" version with a cut-down price. I don't have it myself (I use LGB MTS3 with Massoth Navigator) but I'm sure others on here can share their experience with it. I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned it. Maybe it's not readily available, or there is some other reason.

Edit: just for clarity, I don't mean the Piko SmartControl (which is for smaller gauges) but this . . .


Cheers

David

 

[jonh]

Whilst you are doing your £ thoughts, remember that some of the alternatives use a smart phone or pad for driving the trains. Ok if you have something with the ability but potentially more costs if you don't. Then there is also the difficulties in using a phone in the garden, A there is sun to contend with, B do you want to watch your trains or just look at a screen?

Jon,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Good points well made, On point A, I'm painfully aware that some of the modern (read CS3 here) DCC Systems rely on the ability to connect your phone or tablet via Wi-Fi and use those as additional controllers, and as you rightly point out we all know how easy (not) they are too see in bright sunshine, that said I have two 55015P controllers with my MTS set-up and cannot see the half inch high LED's on those in bright sunlight either, so even they are not perfect, though I concede an LCD display like those favoured by Massoth(and the Digitrax set-up I mention in my OP) should work better whatever the light is like!

On Point B, Watch the trains of course! isn't that what this hobby is ultimately about? And that its where my desire to automate comes from so I can push a button sit back and watch the trains run! I suppose if I have to do the necessary 'work' to get this done via a glass screen then I suppose, I'll have to grin a bare it, but that's why I've asked the questions.

Cheers

Jon H

 

[Greg Elmassian]

One more time, it's important to keep the OP's requests in mind:

"Ultimately my goal is to have some form of fully automated line, so more than one loco running at the same time is more than distinctly possible!"

So, my suggestion was based on

• DCC
• easy to use
• not too expensive
• and AUTOMATION support

So this leaves out several well meaning suggestions.

There are precious few systems out of the box that can match the CS3 for the automation features and easy to use, and perhaps you have seen the ZOOM meetings Marklin holds to let people actually ask questions in real time to experts, where the automation programming is shown. They post the ZOOM meetings to Youtube after:

Hello Märklin Digital Club Member,

In case you missed the Märklin Digital Zoom webinar #16, or you would just like to watch it again, click on the YouTube link below. You will be taken directly to the #16 webinar on YouTube. Direct YouTube Link:

There's virtually no one else offering this level of support in automation in an easy to use, visual system.

Greg

 

[jonh]

Hi Jon,

I run a fully automated railway. You can see a short overview of it here.

I also talk in brief outline about the automation side of things.

I've got a load of thoughts which I look forward to penning later. I sense a long reply coming!!

James,

Thanks for the video, I watched it with very envious eyes, you make it look very easy, though I suspect that may be far from the truth (and that's the bit that scares my addled brain) but it's exactly what I'm hoping to achieve with my own railway!

I noticed from the video that you use a Lenz DCC command station and other manufacturers kit for train detection, point control etc. and this is another bit of DCC that I Labour with understanding, as I mentioned in my OP I've seen plenty of other DCC systems which all come with their own versions of point control, train or feedback detection (to name a few), that all seem to be up to the job, but then I worry about the high amps frying everything! I clearly have a way to go to full understanding..

Please be as long with your reply as you feel necessary, I think I need all the information I can get!

Cheers

Jon

 

[jonh]

Have you checked out the Piko DCC System? My understanding is that it is made by Massoth, but as a "cut down" version with a cut-down price. I don't have it myself (I use LGB MTS3 with Massoth Navigator) but I'm sure others on here can share their experience with it. I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned it. Maybe it's not readily available, or there is some other reason.

Edit: just for clarity, I don't mean the Piko SmartControl (which is for smaller gauges) but this . . .

View attachment 290140
Cheers

David

David,

I'd completely forgotten about Piko, another one to add to my list.

cheers

Jon

 

[PhilP]

Whilst I agree with Greg, that the CS3 gives the best 'out of the box' experience, I offer this observation :

CS3 = MFX = (predominantly) Marklin

DCC = Anyone who follows the standards, and you can (to some extent) use whoevers device works best in your environment.

For the level of (automatic) control you want:
There will be a learning curve.
There will be extra complexity, and wiring.
There will be a lot of time, spent in front of a screen, to get it running as you want.


If you are not afraid of wielding a soldering iron, and doing some programming, yourself?
You could probably trade your time, for dollars spent.

But then I think you are going into this with your eyes open, so realise it will take some effort, to achieve.

PhilP

 

[jonh]

One more time, it's important to keep the OP's requests in mind:

"Ultimately my goal is to have some form of fully automated line, so more than one loco running at the same time is more than distinctly possible!"

So, my suggestion was based on

• DCC
• easy to use
• not too expensive
• and AUTOMATION support

So this leaves out several well meaning suggestions.

There are precious few systems out of the box that can match the CS3 for the automation features and easy to use, and perhaps you have seen the ZOOM meetings Marklin holds to let people actually ask questions in real time to experts, where the automation programming is shown. They post the ZOOM meetings to Youtube after:

Hello Märklin Digital Club Member,

In case you missed the Märklin Digital Zoom webinar #16, or you would just like to watch it again, click on the YouTube link below. You will be taken directly to the #16 webinar on YouTube. Direct YouTube Link:

There's virtually no one else offering this level of support in automation in an easy to use, visual system.

Greg

Greg,

once again thanks!

I've watched all the zoom meetings you refer to, and this is where I've formed my opinion about the CS3, but even though I've seen those, and despite it originating from the maker of LGB kit, I still worry if it (or more precisely the things that plug into it and might sit trackside) is up to the task! Though that probably says more about me and my level of paranoia and self doubt regarding this purchase than the CS3...

Jon

 

[Greg Elmassian]

PhilP:

Not argumentative, but if you say there is a simpler, better, easier way to automate, with all that support and monthly online meetings to ask actual questions, please give the example.

I'd like to know too, since this comes up all the time, people want automation, but don't want to dive into all "electrical engineering" aspects.

Greg

(and of course Marklin is pushing MFX decoders but saying CS3 = MFX is misleading, you can do plenty with "normal" DCC on a CS3 system)

 

[jimmielx]

Evening John, here goes, I think this may end up being a lengthy post!

I think the choice should be heavily influenced by the method of control you wish to use, so let's start there.

First up, if as well as automation you will also want to control trains manually using a throttle/controller, then you should look at the the controllers offered by each system and be sure it will be one that you will be happy interacting with. So look to see if it is a fixed position controller, or hand held, wired or RC. Then the method of control offered, a knob or slider or buttons. Does that look like something you'd enjoy using to drive a train. As Jon D mentioned above using a phone screen might not be much fun, or it might, I think that's a pretty personal choice. If you are intending only to run automated, then the controller could become much less important as you may hardly ever touch it - that's my position.

Next, its worth considering the current capacity of the system. I run a 5A command station - it happens to be a Lenz one. From the video you get the sense of the kind of trains I run - a narrow gauge feel, where the trains are not going particularly fast, nor are they particularly heavy. I can have happily have six trains running at once and rarely get near 4A. I've been running with the same 5A system for a decade and have yet to max out the current draw capacity. From the description of the locos you have I'd be pretty confident that a 5A system would be fine - however I wouldn't go for less than that, and would also feel fine about a 8A system for more headroom if you're planning a large empire!

You've expressed some concern about using kit that is aimed at the smaller scales indoors. I don't think this should be a concern. Ultimately we are talking about model trains with motors in. The command station won't care about the difference in scale size. What does matter is that G scale trains will draw more current than 00. But if you're talking about G scale 0-4-0s and the like then not enough more to make a difference. Unless that is you start wanting to use some big USA Trains consists pulling huge trains of heavy wagons - then you'll need significantly more capacity - but again this doesn't sound like what you are aiming to do. For reference, my stock includes locos with Stainz and Toy Train chassis, Bachmann Thomas stuff, USA Trains power blocks (two on a railcar which never pulls anything, somewhat over specified), sound cards, a fan assisted smoke generator; in addition I power some static decoders for coloured light signalling and a servo operated semaphore straight from the DCC hub (most have separate power supplies).
Now, my command station is a Lenz LS100, quite old now, and is most commonly used for the smaller scales I'm sure, but it is very capable of running my railway. The command station isn't fussed how big the trains are, simply can it provide the required power to do the job. One thing it will be fussed about is getting wet - nothing electrical is going to like that! The command station needs to be sited inside (mine's in my shed) or in a very watertight cabinet. Obviously anything on the mains voltage side, transformers etc. must be inside. In my video you saw a few circuit boards also in the shed - these kind of things I do also have around the railway in watertight boxes.

Moving away from the hardware for a moment to automation. Assuming that you're not talking about some sort of shuttle unit and are looking at full automation. My experience is with using a commercial computer program to control the trains. For me this is iTrain which is software which you purchase. Other similar software is also available - Traincontroller, RocRail, being another couple which would do something similar. There is also the Arduino type route, but I know nothing about that - it sounds complicated! If you want really complicated do check out Linleys Garden Railway on YouTube - his system is bonkers, amazing, totally home-brew, but I've got no idea what's going on there. I am not familiar with getting automation using the CS3 (or indeed the ECOS (does that also do it?)). I am going to stick my neck out a bit a suggest that there is a possibility that using one of the commercial pieces of software on a PC/Mac may provide more powerful automation - my reasoning being that a computer has a really good interface for setting everything up and at least iTrain has been in constant development for a decade with a thriving community of users and a very active developer. Anyway, certainly you should look at what the CS3 can do by itself, but I have no problem in recommending iTrain as a piece of software control the layout if you choose that route.

 

[jimmielx]

Back to choosing a command station. In automation, once you've got control of the trains and points/turnouts, the most important thing is the feedbacks - these are the eyes of the automation system which let the system know where things are. The basic iTrain method of doing things, which I'm sure is shared, is that you divide your layout up into blocks, very much like a real railway and there is a simple rule - only one train per block at a time. In that way things won't crash into each other! Then each block needs a sensor of some kind so that it can know that a train is there. iTrain requires at least one sensor per block - these could be occupancy sensors - current detectors, or magnetic reed switches, or some sort of light sensor (rubbish outside). But here is where things can get expensive, because you can need quite a lot of individual feedbacks. Massoth current sensing for example is very expensive. My railway uses 4x LDT RS8 boards, so a total of 24 current sensing occupancy detectors. At £70 each, that's £280 worth of feedbacks. It's a reasonable amount of cash, but not terrible. If I was starting now I'd look at at Digikeijs DR4088LN-CS which for £61 offers 16 ways of current sensing occupancy feedbacks for LocoNet.

That brings me to how the various add on boards work. For the most part point/turnout decoders, as well as static decoders for signals and the like take commands from the DCC signal. So they are compatible with any DCC system. So despite having a Lenz system, my semaphore signals are run by ESU servo decoders and also a single IMP one, and my colour light signals are run by another board by a manufactured which escapes me at the moment. But they all take their single from the accessory addresses transmitted over DCC. So I suspect your LGB point motors would also work on a new system.
Feedbacks are a different matter however. Instead of receiving a signal from the command station they need to send one to it and this is not part of the common shared DCC protocol. The manufacturers use proprietary feedback buses (network connections) to join the boards together and allow them to communicate back to the command station. Lenz use XpressNet, Digitrax use LocoNet, for example. My LDT feedbacks use XpressNet so are compatible with my Lenz system, the Digikeijs feedbacks I mentioned use LocoNet, so are compatible with Digitrax and other systems which also use LocoNet. Your LGB ones though, I'm not sure. You might need to sell those on.

Should you need to communicate with a PC then you either need a computer interface (I use a Lenz Li-USB) or for your command station to have one built in - the latest from Lenz and the Digitrax DCS240 do for example. And you want to be sure that whatever software you use is capable of talking to your chosen command station.

So there are lot of interlocking choices which would lead you to a choice of DCC System. If you decide to go the computer control route then I'd recommend the Digitrax DCS240 (5A or 8A with the right power supply) - Digitrax have also release recently a new RC throttle, you could use the Digikeijs feedbacks, this is a very well supported syste;, the Lenz Set 101 - 5A and a wired throttle, but it's the latest version of what I have and it's done me very well, so I feel obliged to mention it; the Z21 (again with Digikeijs feedbacks I think) gets a lot of love on the iTrain forum. Personally, since I am only looking for my command station to be a dumb buffer between my computer and the rails I would steer clear of ECOS and CS3 as they both look to be a bit of a computer themselves, which strikes me as an added layer of complication. I'd also want to be sure that Piko or Massoth's systems were supported by any software I'd look to use. Massoth wasn't some years ago, but I understand it is now - in any case, I think that's the expensive route.

I've written a lot I know - and I have so much more I could download, but I'll stop for now. Despite this I will say that automating your railway - your garden railway - as I have is not rocket science. It is perfectly achievable. It does not have to be very expensive - as I have done it, yes some expense, but not out of control, particularly if you plan the system carefully. There will be a lot of wires, but again, once you understand what you are doing it is not difficult and installed carefully will not cause problems. My railway just runs, very reliably. Having set it up I do not spend hours programming. I can have six trains running their routes in five minutes and they will happily continue without need for any input from me for hours. I have spent many hours sitting with my four year old watching the trains go by. We have several favourite spots in the garden for him to do this, sometimes we eat dinner after school next to the bridge and watch the trains merrily crossing. Despite having a very simple layout there is quite a bit of operational variation with some calling into sidings, varied length station stops, goods trains overtaking stopped passenger services (outrageous I know), and push-pull types doing a backwards forwards and round to round thing depending upon which lines are free. So we never know which train is coming next! Most of the line is also signalled with the computer controlling those too.

All interesting stuff, so do let us know what you think you might do. Also happy to have a go at any other questions you've got!

 

[jimmielx]

Crikey - I had to break that down into two posts as I hit the character limit!!!

 

[jimmielx]

PhilP:

Not argumentative, but if you say there is a simpler, better, easier way to automate, with all that support and monthly online meetings to ask actual questions, please give the example.

I'd like to know too, since this comes up all the time, people want automation, but don't want to dive into all "electrical engineering" aspects.

Greg

(and of course Marklin is pushing MFX decoders but saying CS3 = MFX is misleading, you can do plenty with "normal" DCC on a CS3 system)

Not argumentative either(!), but as an example iTrain has an active forum for registered users in several languages with experienced helpers who will answer simple questions for newbies or delve into complex layouts for those with more experience. Answers to questions typically arrive within hours there.
The developer is also very active on the forum, and the software receives regular service updates, as well as new versions bringing more and more functionality. I started with version 1 about 10 years ago and it's now on version 5.
Now there is also now a set of youtube videos (currently numbering 51) which very clearly explain everything from getting iTrain installed and connected, through first steps in automation to more complex ideas.

I do agree that you are not going to achieve automation without taking time to understand it clearly. But it is perfectly achievable.

 

[Dan]

Newer systems do use the 28/128 speed step capability and come preset for 128. Some old LGB decoders wioll not do 128 steps and the oldest are 14 only. Your MTS II P version was 14 steps only. Newer systems also use short address up to 99, and long addresses up to at least 9999, not sure what some old LGB decoders will do.

 

[jonh]

Whilst I agree with Greg, that the CS3 gives the best 'out of the box' experience, I offer this observation :

CS3 = MFX = (predominantly) Marklin

DCC = Anyone who follows the standards, and you can (to some extent) use whoevers device works best in your environment.

For the level of (automatic) control you want:
There will be a learning curve.
There will be extra complexity, and wiring.
There will be a lot of time, spent in front of a screen, to get it running as you want.


If you are not afraid of wielding a soldering iron, and doing some programming, yourself?
You could probably trade your time, for dollars spent.

But then I think you are going into this with your eyes open, so realise it will take some effort, to achieve.

PhilP

Phil,

Thanks for your observations, I hope you won't mind if I put in words some of my thoughts in relation to them..

"CS3 = MFX = (predominantly) Marklin"- Very true, however as my modelling bent is German/Austrian all of my locos/rolling stock are already M/LGB, (albeit non MFX DCC) and I suppose at some point in the future I may buy a second hand LGB loco which may be MFX chipped and given the problems some on here have had getting their new LGB locos to work properly on non MFX DCC systems, perhaps going down the CS3 route will be simpler? it's a risk I'll have to consider...

"DCC = Anyone who follows the standards, and you can (to some extent) use whoevers device works best in your environment." - again very true, however as we're talking about a CS3 here, that does support DCC too, however all the info you see about at not surprisingly pushes their 'own' MFX format, how well it supports DCC is another thing, and again why I posed all the questions in my OP!

"For the level of (automatic) control you want
There will be a learning curve.
There will be extra complexity, and wiring.
There will be a lot of time, spent in front of a screen, to get it running as you want." - Yes I appreciate all of these, Hopefully I'll learn (fingers crossed), Oh gawd not more wire to run! ah yes more time in front a screen.. oh well there goes the eyesight..

"If you are not afraid of wielding a soldering iron, and doing some programming, yourself?
You could probably trade your time, for dollars spent." - Ah sadly me and soldering irons are not good bed fellows, and the aforementioned colour blindness makes me shy away from a 'project build' despite the considerable savings that would give, on the subject of programming interestingly (for me?) I've been tinkering with the MTS PC software which has a whole new language to learn to 'schedule' your trains, and in part it's that which has got me going down this route..

"But then I think you are going into this with your eyes open, so realise it will take some effort, to achieve." - To be honest I may be squinting a bit at the moment, but yes I'd like to think that, and again just to reiterate that's why I asked all the questions in my OP, as expected my fellow forumites have not let me down and are coming up with some food for thought!

Cheers

Jon

 

[jonh]

Crikey - I had to break that down into two posts as I hit the character limit!!!

James,

Thank you for a wonderfully full and clear reply!

I hope you won't mind but there's a lot to take in there, which will almost inevitably spawn more questions (sorry), so I'll call this a holding reply to your reply, and will come back to you some time tomorrow.

Jon.