Suggestions for a replacement for my MTS2 DCC System

[phils2um]

CS3 = MFX = (predominantly) Marklin

This is absolutely incorrect. I run both mfx and DCC simultaneously with my CS3. It has no trouble controlling both flavors of digital control at the same time. I have yet to encounter any problems of one protocol interfering with another. You can even use it exclusively for DCC if you want. The CS3 will support three digital protocols if desired - the original Märklin Motorola (MM), the newer mfx, and also DCC. You can select any or all. I don't have any old MM decoder equipped locos so have that protocol turned off on my CS3.

All my locos with Märklin mfx decoders still have all protocols enabled. I have turned off mfx and am using DCC exclusively in my ESU decoder equipped locos. I did this so I could set the decoder address to the loco's number. Finally, my Massoth decoder locos are of course DCC. Most of my lighted passenger wagons now have either Massoth or MD Electronics DCC function decoders installed. These decoder addresses are set to the wagon's number.

Even though I have some of the new LGB turnout decoders that are mfx capable (and will self-register if set up that way) I have them set up for the DCC switch protocol in order to have access to more switch addresses, 2048 vice mfx's 800 or so. This also lets me select what switch address is assigned to each turnout decoder. I'm using some Massoth and MD Electronics DCC turnout decoders in addition to those from LGB.

Regarding wireless capability. The only additional equipment needed is a wifi router. These can be had quite inexpensively. You might even have an old one laying around. The router does not need to be connected to the internet to have a wireless LAN (local area net) for train control but you may need a computer of some sort to configure it.

A comment about using wireless phones as controllers. Märklin's latest web browser control software is very good. This is probably the real reason Märklin gave up on the dedicated wireless controller they were working on. I recommend using this method to connect and control when using your phone. I very quickly became adept at using the phone touch screen. Only a quick glance at the screen is necessary to operate the throttle. The touch sensitive turnouts on the track plan make throwing switches very easy and intuitive. I have not found display washout in bright sunlight to be other than a minor inconvenience with my iPhone 6S. I should mention that the web browser control is independent from the CS3s on board control screen unlike the VNC connection I talk of next.

The CS3 also has built-in VNC server software which is my preferred method of connecting when using my laptop. In fact, this is the most convenient method of making layout/programming changes on the CS3. This is actually a remote login to the CS3 with the CS3 display mirrored to the PC. This connection method allows the computer mouse and keyboard to be used as input devices. It is both more precise and faster than using the CS3 touchscreen.

I am only beginning to explore the CS3's automation capability. But agree with Greg that the native built-in automation support of the CS3 software will allow you to do just about anything you may want.

I really like the CS3 and overall am glad I selected it. My only complaint with the system is the 5 amp current limit of Märklin's boosters including the one built-in to the CS3 itself. I ended up getting an additional booster and 5 amp power supply to run all the trains (and lighted wagons) I wanted. Luckily, I had already configured my track into multiple power zones so adding the booster was a simple matter.

I do have to admit that almost all of my locos are LGB, both MZS (DCC) or converted analog (DCC), and MLGB mfx. The only exceptions being a Bachman Climax and a couple of Märklin 1 scale locos that have been converted and updated with ESU decoders. None of the LGB locos are current hogs - even the two motor locos draw a max of about 1.8 amps pulling six 4 axle LGB 3067 type passenger wagons on the 3.5% grades of my RR. The MLGB mfx locos were a major reason why I selected the CS3 in the first place.

 

[AlanL]

Jon, I was in a similar position to yourself some years ago. I had an MTS 2 P system and desired train automation so that I could relax and simply watch the trains moving through the garden.
I discovered by accident that the Massoth system has the ability for automation. I was aware of Massoth but hadn't realised that it had this capability. I was expecting automation to require computers so to discover that the Massoth CS could offer automation was a winner. Computer controlled layouts offer more scope for complex operations but for myself, I just wanted some stopping and starting with trains alternating. My track plan is fairly simple therefore basic train movements are enough to keep me entertained.

As you already have some Feedback and Train Detection modules then with the Massoth system you are part-way there. The Massoth system is popular here in the UK there will be plenty of support available here and by Massoth directly. The Massoth controller (Navigator) is well designed for outdoor use and the display is readable in the sunshine with a tactile knob unlike the 55015.

My railway has only 1 Feedback Module but it allows the inputs from 8 sensors that control 5 trains at once. With 5 trains stopping and starting, there is always something happening and the railway looks busy. Because 2 of the trains alternate with a waiting time, the most trains running at one time is 4 but sometimes there are no trains running, they are all waiting for the off and there becomes a great sense of anticipation of the first train to move.

A video of the automation would show it better but I've not progressed to posting videos yet!

I don't use Train Detection modules, they are not weather-proof but I use Massoth Track sensors that are totally sealed units. The down-side is that each locomotive must have a magnet attached to operate the track sensor.

Alan

 

[phils2um]

Attached are my expenditures on Märklin CS3 and related control hardware. This will give you some idea of what an extremely capable complete CS3 setup will cost. One of the boosters and power supplies are in reserve for future expansion. I could have saved some money by purchasing third-party such as Mean Well power supplies. Not included on the list is about $90 spent on an Azatrax MRD8 8 channel IR emitter/detector train detector module and sensors I plan to experiment with. The Azatrax module will interface with the Märklin S88 AC feedback modules to give occupancy detection. All the Märklin items were sourced from Modellbahnshop-lippe except for the CS3 and one power supply. This saved me quite a few dollars.

As an aside, getting a CS3 and Link 88 actually makes more sense, is more capable and is less expensive than the CS3 Plus for use in the garden. The only reason to buy a CS3 Plus is if you want multiple CS3s. I consider this a waste of money and computing power as only the master CS3 is doing any real data processing. The CS3 web browser control option allows for more independent train controllers than anyone will ever need.

 

[jonh]

Crikey - I had to break that down into two posts as I hit the character limit!!!

James,

Thank you again for your reply, there's a cornucopia of really useful information in there, and as you probably appreciate a lot to take in, so me trying to get my thoughts in order for a reply has taken me a lot longer than I expected, so apologies for the delay in responding properly.

As I said in my reply to your first post (with the video) you are doing exactly what in my minds eye I hope to some day achieve, so to flesh that out a little bit more, I intend to run a majority of small 0-4-0 locos with perhaps the odd slightly larger loco (almost certainly an M/LGB made one and possibly twin power block) hauling log trains (though I don't own any of that yet so very much on my wish list), I suppose I am attempting much the same narrow gauge feel as you, but with a Continental outline, this I very much hope will be achievable with 5A but I if I can get more power that would probably assist with the larger loco desires.. so some food for thought there for me..

Controlling is currently hand held wire free using LGB 55016 controllers, moving forward I'm aiming for full automation, hands free, but I suspect there will be times when manual control will be needed for 'trouble shooting' and as you have pointed out the style of controller varies dramatically from system to system, I suppose I lean towards some form of wire free hand held controller in addition to the 'hands free automation' as that's what I have at the moment, I guess ultimately I may have to live with my decision if I go down the 'glass cockpit' route though as Phil S mentioned above, he has no issues using his CS3 via his IPhone, and despite their pitfalls I think it may be a risk I'm willing to take.

Yes I do seem to have an irrational concern regarding the ability of the kit made for smaller gauges to cope with the rigours of the Larger Scales, this is in part borne from having produced 'magic smoke' from two of my LGB decoders which were supposed to be able to cope with the higher amps (though in hindsight that is probably more due operator error than the decoders themselves) and a fear that putting higher amps through the Command Station will blow that. I have this strange cartoon like image in my head, that I'll wire this all up, flick a switch and there'll be a pop as the Command Station gives up the ghost and somewhere out in the garden several small mushroom clouds will appear and that will be the end of my adventure in Garden rail! (perhaps the least said about the workings or not of the inside of my head the better), it's good to have some reassurance that my fears are unfounded.

My planing such as it so far, has my DCC system staying indoors, with a cable running down the side of the house to connect to my line, though I'm beginning to wonder with the connections likely to be needed to the feedbacks etc whether this is such a good idea, I have a shed which could be used to houses all the kit and of course is physically closer to the 'action' but did wonder about leaving the Command Station et al out there year round, I note you say all your kit is out in a shed, does it stay out there 24/7-365 through thick and thin, and to give me an idea, just how much/many cable connections do you have running back into it?

Ah automation software, I had always assumed going down this route I would need a computer connected to the Command Station, and with a modicum of success, I have been tinkering with the software that LGB offered with it's MTS2 system on my very small test system, though to be honest and no offence meant to the gentleman who now maintains it's successor, I've not found it the easiest to figure out. Like you I'm not sure of the automation features of the ECOS, however I am aware from watching the Marklin Digital Club zoom meetings that the CS3 is capable of basic automation but they do recommend for a fully automatic system you should investigate a software alternative. I've always been keen to investigate these alternatives, however the lack of compatibility of the MTS with 3rd party software has hampered my attempts, so whilst I've looked at both Traincontroller and RocRail before, other than wistfully reading their web pages, I've not progressed any further, another reason that has prompted me to look for a new DCC system. Following your recommendation I've looked at Itrain and a very nice looking piece of software it is, and to see it running your railway also gives a good insight too, however having looked at it I'm slightly frightened by it's cost, may I ask which version you have, so I can get a better handle on those costs?

Owning an MTS system I started on what in hindsight may now be viewed as a slightly blinkered 'buy LGB only' mission to purchase the necessary bits and bobs to enable a move to loco detection etc and the next level of automation, several LGB train detection and feedback modules later and no further down the automation dream, I wonder if perhaps I have backed myself down a one way cul-de-sac? It's only since other members on here like your good self mentioned their way of doing things, did I begin to realise what other kit there was available, so your mention of the Devices by LDT (Litfinski?) and Digikeijs is timely as is the cost of them when compared to Massoth and Marklin.

Another minor nightmare, Standards! As already mentioned the lack of compatibility of my MTS2 with the outside world has slowed me down, now I see I'll have competing proprietary feedback buses to deal with on whichever new DCC system I go with, should I be concerned with which one is 'better' than the other, is there more support for one over another for instance, or availability of accessories? You are not wrong though in your observation regarding my LGB point controllers, I think these being more 'DCC' than LGB should work fine, but owing to the (also) proprietary nature of the LGB/Massoth bus, my LGB train detection and feedback modules will need to be sold on, but I suppose whatever is made by that sale can be put towards something else for the railway empire!

So which system to go for? To be honest I still have no real idea! But thank you for your suggestion of the Digitrax DCS240, thinking aloud here, with my wish to have some form of hand held controller would it be more cost effective to get this one box solution here:- EVOXD Evolution Express Advanced 5A/8A Duplex Radio Starter Set CE - High Power Greater Than 4 Amps - DCC Systems - Shop by Product (other retailers are available) though I've just noticed this has a DCS210+ Command Station not a DCS240 and I cannot really find anything that tells me the difference between them? if you have an opinion I'd be grateful to hear it.
The Lenz set 101 also looks very interesting too, comes in at a reasonable price and with you leading the way proven technology for what I'm after too!
The Z21 also looks good too, and I notice they do an 'XL' version aimed at the larger scales, although coming with the option of a hand-held controller (multimaus?), it seems a bit CS3 like in it's reliance on an app on a phone for control, though unlike the CS3 in that it's still a dumb Buffer (as you referred to them), and last but no means least the CS3 itself, a fully blown linux computer albeit I assume locked in a kiosk mode of sorts, this like all the others seems to offer a very good solution to my 'problem' (if only all problems were like this) but am I falling foul of a 'all that glitters is not gold' with the CS3 looking at the feedbacks (S88?) available they seem more costly to us in the UK compared to the LDT or Digikeijs ones you mentioned, though Phil S has again supplied some useful facts and figures regarding his purchases of kit from Germany, there again is - Brexit fallout permitting - a location to buy things from..

Thanks for again for your reply, apologies for the length of my reply again, I could probably go on (and on and on). I'm lucky I don't have to make a decision just yet, so any further thoughts or information would be more than welcome.

Hoping this make sense.

Jon

 

[jonh]

Jon, I was in a similar position to yourself some years ago. I had an MTS 2 P system and desired train automation so that I could relax and simply watch the trains moving through the garden.
I discovered by accident that the Massoth system has the ability for automation. I was aware of Massoth but hadn't realised that it had this capability. I was expecting automation to require computers so to discover that the Massoth CS could offer automation was a winner. Computer controlled layouts offer more scope for complex operations but for myself, I just wanted some stopping and starting with trains alternating. My track plan is fairly simple therefore basic train movements are enough to keep me entertained.

As you already have some Feedback and Train Detection modules then with the Massoth system you are part-way there. The Massoth system is popular here in the UK there will be plenty of support available here and by Massoth directly. The Massoth controller (Navigator) is well designed for outdoor use and the display is readable in the sunshine with a tactile knob unlike the 55015.

My railway has only 1 Feedback Module but it allows the inputs from 8 sensors that control 5 trains at once. With 5 trains stopping and starting, there is always something happening and the railway looks busy. Because 2 of the trains alternate with a waiting time, the most trains running at one time is 4 but sometimes there are no trains running, they are all waiting for the off and there becomes a great sense of anticipation of the first train to move.

A video of the automation would show it better but I've not progressed to posting videos yet!

I don't use Train Detection modules, they are not weather-proof but I use Massoth Track sensors that are totally sealed units. The down-side is that each locomotive must have a magnet attached to operate the track sensor.

Alan

Alan,

Well they've kept that a secret haven't they, before I lurch down the route of some other system, would it be possible for you to elaborate a little more on how you set it all up?

thanks

Jon

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Me too, I was unaware of the capabilities of a Massoth system other than the stuff in the decoders themselves.

Greg

 

[jimmielx]

Hi Jon,

Take just as long as you like - it's a big investment. Worth doing the research and giving it a good amount of thought!

I'm minded to think that you will be ok on 5A, but if there's an opportunity for a few more then there's certainly no harm in that.

If you are going to end up fully automated, then it will be important to have a hand controller for testing, but agreed, much less important what it is.

I do think that all of the command stations that have been mentioned here would work well - no need to worry about scale.

My command station started in a shed for a few years, then migrated into a garden room and is now back out in a shed. It has always stayed put there all year round! I'd be inclined to put the command station in shed rather than further away indoors. However if you run chunky cable for the main DCC connection to the shed then that ought to be fine too. There aren't too many connections to the command station. It probably varies per system - but DCC main track, programming track (though the programming track can just go next to the command station wherever it is), feedback bus and controller/PC connections - though in the case of a LocoNet system I think all this takes place over LocoNet, so probably only one cable required.

I'm not familiar with the automation capabilities that some of the command stations support natively. If they provide the level of automation you need then they would look like a very compelling choice. A very crude comparison would seem to me that the computer software systems know what your railway looks like, where everything is all the time and drive the trains following block principals - one train per block. Where as the command station implementation is an event based automation, drive a given train until an event occurs then, change in some way until another event occurs. Is this fair, or have I massively oversimplified - I feel I certainly have if relation to the software solutions, maybe too for the command station solutions?

I have iTrain Plus, but iTrain Standard would be fine. Lite is really just for layout control - it won't drive the trains for you. Plus allows you to use the decoder programming facilities that iTrain has which I have found useful for a bit of PoM occasionally, but JMRI DecoderPro is worlds better, so I mostly use that. Professional allows you to have another computer or smartphone connected to iTrain too. But basically Standard will do everything you need.
RocRail is completely free isn't it? I remember when deciding which program to go with I got the trial of iTrain and downloaded RocRail. iTrain seemed more logical to me so I went with that, but I think RocRail is well liked by it's users too.
TrainController can get seriously expensive beyond bronze - I didn't look into that one.
Bottom line is that I suspect any of those would work well.

I'm going to throw one more curve ball regarding current sensing for G scale outdoors. A typical small scale occupancy feedback module will send back an occupied signal when it sees 1 or 2 mA of current flowing. This is absolutely fine when it's dry, but when it's wet particularly if track is well ballasted or has leaves around it enough current can flow to ground through the water to trigger false positive occupancies which rather scuppers things. Massoth's current detection modules trigger at 5mA or 20mA which is much more resistant to these issues. However fear not there is a very simple solution involving a little grid of resistors which effectively leak a bit of current around the occupancy sensor - you'll see the solution applied to my LDT (yes,Littfinski DatenTechnik)RS8s at 1:14 on my video. Google tells me that the same solution works for the Digikeijs. The day I discovered that (only about a year ago) was a very happy day for me and I implemented the resistor trick on all my boards the same day. I am now triggering at a little under 10mA I think and it has to be very wet indeed before I get the false positives. One other issue to be aware of with both the LDT and Digikeijs is that the current is limited through them. 2A per contact on Digikeijs and 3A per four contacts on LDT. This wouldn't worry me and I don't think should worry you either, but worth pointing it out.

I think if you don't go Massoth then probably your LGB feedbacks would have to be sold on. There is no getting away from the fact that whilst the DCC side has lots of opportunities for mixing signal and point decoders, once you've chosen a system your choice of feedback modules available is very limited. But yes I do think your LGB turnout decoders would work.

The Digitrax EVOXD set does look like a really good option - up to 8A, radio controlled handset. I had thought that it lacked a computer interface which is why I didn't suggest it, but now note that on Digitrax's website it state that the 210+ does include a USB interface. I'd want to confirm that - I'm sure one of the specialist DCC resellers could do this. As a bonus it even has a switch on the front to set it to G Scale! Combined with the very reasonably priced Digikeijs feedbacks I think that would make a compelling choice.
But any of the ones mentioned would as well. Going the CS3 route would mean you could explore the CS3 automation and only move to the software route if it wasn't doing everything you needed.

So many options and things to consider - all part of the fun though!

 

[jonh]

Attached are my expenditures on Märklin CS3 and related control hardware. This will give you some idea of what an extremely capable complete CS3 setup will cost. One of the boosters and power supplies are in reserve for future expansion. I could have saved some money by purchasing third-party such as Mean Well power supplies. Not included on the list is about $90 spent on an Azatrax MRD8 8 channel IR emitter/detector train detector module and sensors I plan to experiment with. The Azatrax module will interface with the Märklin S88 AC feedback modules to give occupancy detection. All the Märklin items were sourced from Modellbahnshop-lippe except for the CS3 and one power supply. This saved me quite a few dollars.

As an aside, getting a CS3 and Link 88 actually makes more sense, is more capable and is less expensive than the CS3 Plus for use in the garden. The only reason to buy a CS3 Plus is if you want multiple CS3s. I consider this a waste of money and computing power as only the master CS3 is doing any real data processing. The CS3 web browser control option allows for more independent train controllers than anyone will ever need.

View attachment 290185

Phil,

Thank you for both of your replies, and apologies for the delay in me responding, there's been a lot to take in from the replies I have had and trying to get my thoughts out via a keyboard has taken me a while longer..

It's good to hear from someone who is actually using a CS3 and in the Garden, as my only experience of one so far is watching the Marklin Digital Club zoom meetings on You-Tube and that seems predominately HO led.

It's watching those Videos that I'd picked up that the Cs3 worked fine with DCC non MFX chipped locos, whilst they didn't go into great detail they acknowledged that DCC would work okay, which is just as well as if I finally decide to go down the CS3 route all my locos are older DCC chipped LGB locos, but it's nice to have the reassurance from someone operating in that environment that they'll work with no problems.

It's also good to learn that my existing LGB point controllers (55025) will work too as they are 'plain' DCC ones.

Again from watching the videos I had seen the two different ways of accessing the CS3 either via a browser or via the VNC connection, both looked very powerful methods of driving the CS3 from another device and again good to learn that it gives you no issues either way you connect to it, and use it via your phone. I have to admit this was one of the things that impressed me when watching the videos, how easy it was to connect to.

I was interested to hear your thoughts on the CS3 versus the CS3+, very interesting, I'd not thought about it that way and had only been looking at the CS3+ in my searches for a DCC system, there is a you say a considerable difference in price! Thanks for your price breakdown too, that's also useful to use as a comparison to the cost of similar devices from the makers of the other DCC systems I'm looking at, my problem at the moment is I'm almost blind to what is out that is compatible with the CS3, I know that either a Link-88 or a S88 are the main feedback modules, but there after what else can be connected is a mystery to me, then again much the same goes for any of the other DCC systems I'm looking at, be they Digitrax, Lenz or Roco, in fact as part of my information gathering a quick Google search revealed to me that Digikeijs sell S88 devices too, and for me in the UK at a price comparable to what you got for the Marklin ones from Germany, you may have heard of something called Brexit over here, that coupled to the recent pandemic seems to have given some of our European sellers a case of the jitters when it comes to selling into the UK, so suddenly I've found my market place reduced, anyway that's my problem not yours!

Keep me posted on your adventures in automation, still early days in my search to say if I'll follow you down the CS3 route, but the more information I can glean, will hopefully help me make the right decision.

Cheers

Jon

 

[Greg Elmassian]

One of the keys to DCC "success" is to have a system that does not RELY on special capabilities in your DCC devices. While Marklin will push the latest and greatest (they are in business to make money), having a system like the CS3 and others that work with the standard DCC functions gives you the most flexibility in choosing what you want to buy for your system.

Getting "locked" into systems that REQUIRE more proprietary equipment really goes against the grain of the basic DCC philosophy.

Many ways to go, but I think that unless you want a big learning curve and can invest a lot of time learning or building, it would be hard to go wrong with the CS3.

Greg

 

[jonh]

Hi Jon,

Take just as long as you like - it's a big investment. Worth doing the research and giving it a good amount of thought!

I'm minded to think that you will be ok on 5A, but if there's an opportunity for a few more then there's certainly no harm in that.

If you are going to end up fully automated, then it will be important to have a hand controller for testing, but agreed, much less important what it is.

I do think that all of the command stations that have been mentioned here would work well - no need to worry about scale.

My command station started in a shed for a few years, then migrated into a garden room and is now back out in a shed. It has always stayed put there all year round! I'd be inclined to put the command station in shed rather than further away indoors. However if you run chunky cable for the main DCC connection to the shed then that ought to be fine too. There aren't too many connections to the command station. It probably varies per system - but DCC main track, programming track (though the programming track can just go next to the command station wherever it is), feedback bus and controller/PC connections - though in the case of a LocoNet system I think all this takes place over LocoNet, so probably only one cable required.

I'm not familiar with the automation capabilities that some of the command stations support natively. If they provide the level of automation you need then they would look like a very compelling choice. A very crude comparison would seem to me that the computer software systems know what your railway looks like, where everything is all the time and drive the trains following block principals - one train per block. Where as the command station implementation is an event based automation, drive a given train until an event occurs then, change in some way until another event occurs. Is this fair, or have I massively oversimplified - I feel I certainly have if relation to the software solutions, maybe too for the command station solutions?

I have iTrain Plus, but iTrain Standard would be fine. Lite is really just for layout control - it won't drive the trains for you. Plus allows you to use the decoder programming facilities that iTrain has which I have found useful for a bit of PoM occasionally, but JMRI DecoderPro is worlds better, so I mostly use that. Professional allows you to have another computer or smartphone connected to iTrain too. But basically Standard will do everything you need.
RocRail is completely free isn't it? I remember when deciding which program to go with I got the trial of iTrain and downloaded RocRail. iTrain seemed more logical to me so I went with that, but I think RocRail is well liked by it's users too.
TrainController can get seriously expensive beyond bronze - I didn't look into that one.
Bottom line is that I suspect any of those would work well.

I'm going to throw one more curve ball regarding current sensing for G scale outdoors. A typical small scale occupancy feedback module will send back an occupied signal when it sees 1 or 2 mA of current flowing. This is absolutely fine when it's dry, but when it's wet particularly if track is well ballasted or has leaves around it enough current can flow to ground through the water to trigger false positive occupancies which rather scuppers things. Massoth's current detection modules trigger at 5mA or 20mA which is much more resistant to these issues. However fear not there is a very simple solution involving a little grid of resistors which effectively leak a bit of current around the occupancy sensor - you'll see the solution applied to my LDT (yes,Littfinski DatenTechnik)RS8s at 1:14 on my video. Google tells me that the same solution works for the Digikeijs. The day I discovered that (only about a year ago) was a very happy day for me and I implemented the resistor trick on all my boards the same day. I am now triggering at a little under 10mA I think and it has to be very wet indeed before I get the false positives. One other issue to be aware of with both the LDT and Digikeijs is that the current is limited through them. 2A per contact on Digikeijs and 3A per four contacts on LDT. This wouldn't worry me and I don't think should worry you either, but worth pointing it out.

I think if you don't go Massoth then probably your LGB feedbacks would have to be sold on. There is no getting away from the fact that whilst the DCC side has lots of opportunities for mixing signal and point decoders, once you've chosen a system your choice of feedback modules available is very limited. But yes I do think your LGB turnout decoders would work.

The Digitrax EVOXD set does look like a really good option - up to 8A, radio controlled handset. I had thought that it lacked a computer interface which is why I didn't suggest it, but now note that on Digitrax's website it state that the 210+ does include a USB interface. I'd want to confirm that - I'm sure one of the specialist DCC resellers could do this. As a bonus it even has a switch on the front to set it to G Scale! Combined with the very reasonably priced Digikeijs feedbacks I think that would make a compelling choice.
But any of the ones mentioned would as well. Going the CS3 route would mean you could explore the CS3 automation and only move to the software route if it wasn't doing everything you needed.

So many options and things to consider - all part of the fun though

Hi James.

Another cavalcade of useful information.. and more grist to the mill..

A few thoughts and comments prompted by your latest reply:-

Good to know that your Command station survives out in the shed, I must admit to shying away from leaving my current kit out there, but obviously another irrational fear of mine! I'm going to need a shrink at this rate if I find any more..

Thanks for confirming the version of Itrain you have, that's still a healthy amount to pay though, but if it does the job, then it's worth it.

Ah now that's a sizeable curve ball to throw my way, I'm particularly useless with a soldering iron , and colour blind as well! I have fond memories of in my youth, both my brother and I had Phillips Electronics sets, and as both of us were colour blind we used to terrorise our poor mother brandishing resistors at various points of construction with cries of "Mum is this Brown, Red. Green?" I digress, I'm assuming I can buy a bag of resistors all of the right value, which removes the colour issue, but the soldering.. H'mmmm.... Oh yes I'd noticed on some of my research that the current was limited through both the LDT and Digikeijs devices, I'd seen much the same for what I assume are the Digitrax equivalents too, and that played into that fear of mine about frying everything so it's good to learn that's another one I can rest easy on, thanks.

I think I'm resigned to the fact that unless I invest in a Massoth system, I shall have to sell on my small collection of LGB feedbacks, so no problem there.

Thanks for checking the Digitrax EVOXD set for me, good to know it should be up to the job, I notice that Digitrax do quite a selection of feedback and block detection devices (are they the same thing?), and you've already mentioned LDT and Digikeijs, who both do quite a selection of feedback devices, playing devils advocate for a moment, if I went down the CS3 route, Marklin, if I read their website/web-shop correctly, seem to sell only two sorts of Feedbacks a Link-88 and an S88, however I noticed that both LDT and Digikeijs advertise S88 devices, is it safe to assume these are compatible with the CS3? I suppose this is another issue I need to be aware of when considering which system to go for, the availability of Feedbacks etc be they from the same make of the DCC system or a third party maker?

Yes more to think about, fun fun fun.. (I think..)

 

[jonh]

One of the keys to DCC "success" is to have a system that does not RELY on special capabilities in your DCC devices. While Marklin will push the latest and greatest (they are in business to make money), having a system like the CS3 and others that work with the standard DCC functions gives you the most flexibility in choosing what you want to buy for your system.

Getting "locked" into systems that REQUIRE more proprietary equipment really goes against the grain of the basic DCC philosophy.

Many ways to go, but I think that unless you want a big learning curve and can invest a lot of time learning or building, it would be hard to go wrong with the CS3.

Greg

Useful as ever Greg, thanks..

I fully understand and get the significance of having a system that doesn't 'lock' me into their way of doing things..

However outside of the DCC functions, there are the communication buses that the different systems use, Digitrax - Loconet , Lenz - XpressNet, CS3 well I've no idea there! I don't want to free myself of the reliance on one set of proprietary equipment, just to be saddled with another! Though to my untutored eyes it looks like I have no choice in that...and the amount of things that run on those buses seems to differ from system to system. It strikes me this is all a juggling act between open standards with a little dusting of proprietaryness (is that a word?) added in, negotiating my way through this is half the fun..

Oh I don't disagree with you the CS3 is looking hard to beat..

Jon

 

[Greg Elmassian]

If you don't have a huge system, don't worry about communications busses...

To be clear, most systems have a proprietary bus between the command station and the throttle... that's life, but almost all have options for a wifi connection to a throttle.

Communications bus might also refer to things like the LCC bus, a standard bus to take things like signals and accessories off the track. I'm pretty sure you are not at the size of installation where you need to worry about this extra complication.

So, I would focus on the automation side, find a system that will do what you want and be the right amount of effort to learn. It will be more work to learn this than learn a particular handheld.... this simplifies your decision process.

Don't get in analysis-paralysis, or overbuild the system. From what I can tell, you are not looking at a huge layout or overly complex setup.

Greg

 

[AlanL]

Alan,

Well they've kept that a secret haven't they, before I lurch down the route of some other system, would it be possible for you to elaborate a little more on how you set it all up?

thanks

Jon

Yes I too was surprised to discover the automatic operating functions of the Massoth system.
But it is limited in comparison to computer controlled systems.

I love the operation of J jimmielx jimmielx's railway, it is an absolute delight to watch with envy .
jimmielx is correct about the differences in the operation of a computer controlled system to a system such as the Massoth. With the Massoth system, the trains do run until they arrive at a sensor and this then gives a series of commands to the locos and switches. The number of commands depends on the complexity of the railway.

In it''s simplest form, it would be a command to pause the loco to wait in a station. If that is your only requirement it would need just 1 sensor to trigger the command. The command is set by using the Navigator for the following parameters;-
1 - Sensor number(the feedback module connection)
2 - Loco address
3 - Command (start forward, start reverse, pause and stop)
4 - Time delay

Generally, you would have 1 sensor for each 'home position ' of a loco. That would be a pair of loops for example, each loco would return to it's own loop, stop, change the points and then start it's adjoining loco with delays as you wish.

The sensor could be the train detection which uses track current or as in my case a Massoth hall-sensor with wiring straight to your feedback module. I prefer to keep the tracks fully powered and not broken up with current sensing devices. They are most suited to the smaller and finescale indoor railways where a lump of a sensor between the tracks is fairly obtrusive. That's just my opinion, as jimmielx says, current sensing works fine, but perhaps a lot more work on the track wiring.

The Massoth Central Station could be inside your house, it only has it's own operating menus on it's display. All train control is achieved by using the Navigator. When you have trains running with the automatic functions, you can also run trains manually at the same time including those that are obeying the commands of the sensors.

Alan

 

[jonh]

If you don't have a huge system, don't worry about communications busses...

To be clear, most systems have a proprietary bus between the command station and the throttle... that's life, but almost all have options for a wifi connection to a throttle.

Communications bus might also refer to things like the LCC bus, a standard bus to take things like signals and accessories off the track. I'm pretty sure you are not at the size of installation where you need to worry about this extra complication.

So, I would focus on the automation side, find a system that will do what you want and be the right amount of effort to learn. It will be more work to learn this than learn a particular handheld.... this simplifies your decision process.

Don't get in analysis-paralysis, or overbuild the system. From what I can tell, you are not looking at a huge layout or overly complex setup.

Greg

Greg,

Good points thanks again!

H'mmm I think I may gone past the analysis-paralysis, and be almost cogitating-comatose.. I have some thinking to do..

Jon

 

[jonh]

Yes I too was surprised to discover the automatic operating functions of the Massoth system.
But it is limited in comparison to computer controlled systems.

I love the operation of J jimmielx jimmielx's railway, it is an absolute delight to watch with envy .
jimmielx is correct about the differences in the operation of a computer controlled system to a system such as the Massoth. With the Massoth system, the trains do run until they arrive at a sensor and this then gives a series of commands to the locos and switches. The number of commands depends on the complexity of the railway.

In it''s simplest form, it would be a command to pause the loco to wait in a station. If that is your only requirement it would need just 1 sensor to trigger the command. The command is set by using the Navigator for the following parameters;-
1 - Sensor number(the feedback module connection)
2 - Loco address
3 - Command (start forward, start reverse, pause and stop)
4 - Time delay

Generally, you would have 1 sensor for each 'home position ' of a loco. That would be a pair of loops for example, each loco would return to it's own loop, stop, change the points and then start it's adjoining loco with delays as you wish.

The sensor could be the train detection which uses track current or as in my case a Massoth hall-sensor with wiring straight to your feedback module. I prefer to keep the tracks fully powered and not broken up with current sensing devices. They are most suited to the smaller and finescale indoor railways where a lump of a sensor between the tracks is fairly obtrusive. That's just my opinion, as jimmielx says, current sensing works fine, but perhaps a lot more work on the track wiring.

The Massoth Central Station could be inside your house, it only has it's own operating menus on it's display. All train control is achieved by using the Navigator. When you have trains running with the automatic functions, you can also run trains manually at the same time including those that are obeying the commands of the sensors.

Alan

Alan,

Like you I view J jimmielx railway with envious eyes, seemingly it does everything I'd love my own to do one day.

Thank you for the additional information, all very interesting I was not aware the Massoth system could achieve those results without the aid of being connected to a computer, more to think about..

I feel I have a steep learning curve ahead!

Jon

 

[jimmielx]

Hi James.

Another cavalcade of useful information.. and more grist to the mill..

A few thoughts and comments prompted by your latest reply:-

Good to know that your Command station survives out in the shed, I must admit to shying away from leaving my current kit out there, but obviously another irrational fear of mine! I'm going to need a shrink at this rate if I find any more..

Thanks for confirming the version of Itrain you have, that's still a healthy amount to pay though, but if it does the job, then it's worth it.

Ah now that's a sizeable curve ball to throw my way, I'm particularly useless with a soldering iron , and colour blind as well! I have fond memories of in my youth, both my brother and I had Phillips Electronics sets, and as both of us were colour blind we used to terrorise our poor mother brandishing resistors at various points of construction with cries of "Mum is this Brown, Red. Green?" I digress, I'm assuming I can buy a bag of resistors all of the right value, which removes the colour issue, but the soldering.. H'mmmm.... Oh yes I'd noticed on some of my research that the current was limited through both the LDT and Digikeijs devices, I'd seen much the same for what I assume are the Digitrax equivalents too, and that played into that fear of mine about frying everything so it's good to learn that's another one I can rest easy on, thanks.

I think I'm resigned to the fact that unless I invest in a Massoth system, I shall have to sell on my small collection of LGB feedbacks, so no problem there.

Thanks for checking the Digitrax EVOXD set for me, good to know it should be up to the job, I notice that Digitrax do quite a selection of feedback and block detection devices (are they the same thing?), and you've already mentioned LDT and Digikeijs, who both do quite a selection of feedback devices, playing devils advocate for a moment, if I went down the CS3 route, Marklin, if I read their website/web-shop correctly, seem to sell only two sorts of Feedbacks a Link-88 and an S88, however I noticed that both LDT and Digikeijs advertise S88 devices, is it safe to assume these are compatible with the CS3? I suppose this is another issue I need to be aware of when considering which system to go for, the availability of Feedbacks etc be they from the same make of the DCC system or a third party maker?

Yes more to think about, fun fun fun.. (I think..)

Hi Jon,

Sorry about the curve ball! Don't worry if you need to engage the resistor trick it's very easy. Yes you'd buy a bag of resistors - all the same value - and if soldering wasn't you bag you could use a bit of connection block instead. It is about the easiest soldering you can do, so if you had an iron you could give it a go. If not a connection block would be fine. Anyway don't get bogged down with it - I spent the first eight years of my automation journey without knowing the trick and it worked fine when it wasn't too wet! Just for completeness here's a link to where I discovered it. BDL168 & BD4 False Detection/Noise - Mark Gurries It doesn't matter that it references Digitrax BDLs, the theory works for other occupancy detectors too. I suggest not worrying about it much more for now - I just wanted you to be aware of a problem I had in using kit which doesn't have outdoor use in mind, and the simple solution which has overcome it.

I think the CS3 does use the S88 bus, so that gives you occupancy feedback options from LDT and Digikeijs, and I think others too.

I have made a mistake in saying that the Lenz system uses XpressNet for feedbacks. The XpressNet is used to connect controllers to the command station. There is a separate bus called the RS feedback bus which the Lenz system uses to communicate with feedbacks. Just me applying the wrong name to the bus, sorry about that. In any case, as happy as I am with my Lenz system - and absolutely certain that when I bought it it was the right purchase, today if buying I would go with a system that could use the Digikeijs feedbacks as they are so reasonably priced. Fortunately since they do s88 and LocoNet you have plenty of options!

Feedback and block detection aren't necessarily the same thing. You need a unit that does both. Block Detection is usually referring to occupancy detection by current sensing. Feedback is sending a message back to the command station. So you can certainly get feedbacks that would just send back the result of a switch being on or off (so you could use that with switches on a control panel or more commonly reed switches if you were using magnets). You can also get occupancy detection modules which don't have the onboard ability to communicate back to command station. So just be sure you're looking at one which does both - the LDT RS8s and Digikeijs DR4088s (not the OPTO ones, there are so many different ones!) are both all in one units, but for example with Massoth you need both the Train Detection Module and the Feedback Module.

Oh dear - I think I manage to make it all sound so much more complicated every time I post. It really isn't!!

Final thought. A chap called Cliff George used to post on here, but I haven't seen his posts for a while. In any case he has/had a very impressive automated railway - automated using TrainController. His youtube channel has some good videos on it of his railway running. https://www.youtube.com/user/ytgeorgc/videos Worth checking out!

James

 

[jonh]

Hi Jon,

Sorry about the curve ball! Don't worry if you need to engage the resistor trick it's very easy. Yes you'd buy a bag of resistors - all the same value - and if soldering wasn't you bag you could use a bit of connection block instead. It is about the easiest soldering you can do, so if you had an iron you could give it a go. If not a connection block would be fine. Anyway don't get bogged down with it - I spent the first eight years of my automation journey without knowing the trick and it worked fine when it wasn't too wet! Just for completeness here's a link to where I discovered it. BDL168 & BD4 False Detection/Noise - Mark Gurries It doesn't matter that it references Digitrax BDLs, the theory works for other occupancy detectors too. I suggest not worrying about it much more for now - I just wanted you to be aware of a problem I had in using kit which doesn't have outdoor use in mind, and the simple solution which has overcome it.

I think the CS3 does use the S88 bus, so that gives you occupancy feedback options from LDT and Digikeijs, and I think others too.

I have made a mistake in saying that the Lenz system uses XpressNet for feedbacks. The XpressNet is used to connect controllers to the command station. There is a separate bus called the RS feedback bus which the Lenz system uses to communicate with feedbacks. Just me applying the wrong name to the bus, sorry about that. In any case, as happy as I am with my Lenz system - and absolutely certain that when I bought it it was the right purchase, today if buying I would go with a system that could use the Digikeijs feedbacks as they are so reasonably priced. Fortunately since they do s88 and LocoNet you have plenty of options!

Feedback and block detection aren't necessarily the same thing. You need a unit that does both. Block Detection is usually referring to occupancy detection by current sensing. Feedback is sending a message back to the command station. So you can certainly get feedbacks that would just send back the result of a switch being on or off (so you could use that with switches on a control panel or more commonly reed switches if you were using magnets). You can also get occupancy detection modules which don't have the onboard ability to communicate back to command station. So just be sure you're looking at one which does both - the LDT RS8s and Digikeijs DR4088s (not the OPTO ones, there are so many different ones!) are both all in one units, but for example with Massoth you need both the Train Detection Module and the Feedback Module.

Oh dear - I think I manage to make it all sound so much more complicated every time I post. It really isn't!!

Final thought. A chap called Cliff George used to post on here, but I haven't seen his posts for a while. In any case he has/had a very impressive automated railway - automated using TrainController. His youtube channel has some good videos on it of his railway running. https://www.youtube.com/user/ytgeorgc/videos Worth checking out!

James

James,

Good to hear that I may not need to wield a soldering Iron, I suppose I need to walk first before running, so rather than worry about the soldering I suppose I should get the DCC system first! But as you say it's good to have a heads up about this in the first place. Thanks for the link to where you discovered the fix.

Thanks also for confirming my thoughts regarding S88's from makers other than Marklin, I suppose on a general level this is part of the learning curve I'm finding a little difficult, having spent many years going down the LGB only route and slowly collecting various of their Feedback and Train detection models, I've become a little blinkered as to what's available out there, so not only am I trying to get my head around different DCC systems, I'm also doing it with an eye on who makes what that will connect to which (does that make sense?), so I do not end up buying something only to find they don't do the necessary things to assist me with automating the railway! Oh the tangled web I'm weaving for myself..

No problem, thanks for putting the record straight, all these different communication methods going around it's no wonder we get confused..

Ah that adds a little bit more to my knowledge, I had wondered why in my LGB dominated world, I'd been buying two things! Oh and thanks for the heads up about the Digikiejs DR4088 OPTO I had wondered about those, you're not wrong though, once you start looking these things start appearing from everywhere!

I'm under no illusion that there is a level of complication involved here, so no need to feel like you are making it feel any more complicated, without you explaining some of these things I'd be in a far worse position, and I'm already pretty good at complicating things for myself anyway!

I remember Cliff from GSM days and as you say on here, thanks for that link too, more information to glean..

Jon

 

[LGB333]

PhilP:

Not argumentative, but if you say there is a simpler, better, easier way to automate, with all that support and monthly online meetings to ask actual questions, please give the example.

I'd like to know too, since this comes up all the time, people want automation, but don't want to dive into all "electrical engineering" aspects.

Greg

(and of course Marklin is pushing MFX decoders but saying CS3 = MFX is misleading, you can do plenty with "normal" DCC on a CS3 system)

Greg - I have a customer who bought the CS3+ and it is primarily oriented to the mfx operating technology.......much less usable with dcc. For example, my customer has tried to use it to operate some of his older LGB locomotives with factory analog sounds in which he's installed a dcc decoder that requires Serial Mode sound activation. He tells me the CS3+ can't do dcc serial control. He's tried to get assistance from the Marklin Digital Guys in California and also the Marklin Service Department Germany but hasn't found much help for the CS3+ dcc function, obviously the system is mfx oriented. The ESU ECOS DCC command station also has, like the CS3+, the five operating technologies but I haven't heard any issues with using dcc serial control. Sometimes when companies add so many "bells and whistles" to their state-of-the-art technical systems, using them can be so complex and sometimes basic capabilities like the dcc serial control are eliminated. My customer's conclusion: Don't use the CS3+ if you only need a dcc operating system. I've sold about 10 of the ESU Cab Control System to customers during the last 12 months, which provides a 7 amp DC power supply, the DCC command station with wifi and Railcom+ features, and the hand held wireless controller throttle with touch screen......an excellent basic DCC system for very reasonable cost.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

not sure what your point is Tom, so you say the CS3+ is primarily MFX because it abandoned the antique serial function commands?

I don't see the logic.... antique serial functions are NOT the primary DCC function, not now... abandoning them does not catapult you from antique past DCC into the new world of mfx.

That's some really old stuff and your customer's conclusion: "Don't use the CS3+ if you only need a dcc operating system." is from a weird perspective...

That's a personal viewpoint, anchored by a lack of understanding.... so don't buy ANY system that does NOT support serial functions?

You can let your customer have that perspective... it's fundamentally wrong and shows a narrow vision of DCC, apparently he has tunnel vision that LGB/MARKLIN is the entire world of trains, and there is either DCC with serial commands or mfx.... just whack a doodle...

Greg

 

[PhilP]

The Marklin CSn have never supported serial DCC.

My analogy would be an old car, requiring leaded petrol..
You can't use just 'any brand' of petrol station. - You have to find one, that still supports your car (loco) and fuel (serial DCC)..

Or you change your engine (sound decoder).

PhilP