What I know about DCC?

Thanks Jon. At least that answers some question. By the process of elimination I'll eventually come to some conclusion. I don't want to not use the locomotive. I'd sooner use something that is old and maybe passed its sell by date than risk one of my other locomotives.

I've an enquiry out with a couple of shops so maybe that'll turn something up.

Thanks again, now get back and enjoy the weather.

Sarah Winfield
 
I have now run the locomotive with my Gaugemaster Series P analogue controller. The same results as with my EZ seems to prevail.

If any of you gentlemen have a deja vu moment I think you and I we went through this saga a couple of years ago which might also explain why I appear to have abandoned my garden railway project at that time.

It's very difficult to know what I can do now, except wait and hope the locomotive can be examined by an expert.

Enjoy the sunshine and thank you.

Sarah Winfield
 
I really am frustrated and at a complete loss as to what on earth is going on with my Stainz.

It's been outside most of the day. Not always running but there for me to enjoy! This evening it seemed to acquire a mind completely of its own. There was absolutely no consistently in its running either DCC or DC.

Firstly it would chug around in reverse quite happily. It still didn't like going forwards and needed some encouragement to go in reverse again. Then it began to stutter and to stop for no apparent reason. It would then start again just like that!

It wouldn't complete a full trip round my oval without either slowing down, stopping or, at one stage, hairing off at quite a lick and all this without any adjustment of the controller.

Such a shame because I can't now narrow it down to any specific problem.

Still tomorrow is another day and who knows?

Sarah Winfield
 
Sarah Winfield said:
I really am frustrated and at a complete loss as to what on earth is going on with my Stainz.
...
It wouldn't complete a full trip round my oval without either slowing down, stopping or, at one stage, hairing off at quite a lick and all this without any adjustment of the controller.
Click to expand...
I think you should probably stop running it any more until it's been looked over - don't want to do any (more) damage if there is something out of alignment mechanically.

If you can't find a local shop or official repair to sort it out, then maybe it could be posted to a friendly soul on here who would be prepared to examine it for you? If it then needs replacement parts then that could be more of a problem for what looks to be an older design Stainz, but it could just be something simple like it's jumped a tooth in the gearing. I'd be prepared to do this for you, though I'll admit my "loco doctor" experience is rather more based on small scale models and I no longer have any G trackwork actually set up (it's all stored away). I have no doubt there are others on here with much more knowledge of LGB locos and their foibles and a working line they could trial it on.
 
<musing for others to comment on>

I wonder if an output FET has failed, so it won't run in one direction?
This could be causing an overheat, and the decoder to shutdown, perhaps?? It then cools and starts again.

The only reason for a DCC loco to 'take off at full speed' that I know of is a power-buffer, and DC running not turned off,

Comments People?
 
Just a though from left field. Perhaps the motor itself is in need of attention. Worn brushes, clogged commutator, and general dirt/age contributed to poor performance on my Feldbahn O&K. I took the motor out to test it, and it was erratic in running, often more in one direction. While the motor was out, I free wheeled the motion to check for binding (which it wasn't). Like you, I aired my problem on here, and Muns came to the rescue.
 
You are of course right and there's no point shooting at the target blind folded.

I've two enquiries out with retailers so I'll wait and see.

Thank you all for your patients.

Sarah Winfield
 
One final test you could do would be to couple Crock Clips (red and white wires in the pic below) to the Pickup Sliders and then to the Controller to see if it is really dodgy unclean track. You can also do this test with just plain wires fed into the controller and touch the other end to each of the wheels and pickups in turn to see that they are all working OK. image.jpgYou may need to modify the link to the controller to that shown here which has just been used to illustrate the principle.

If Stainz wheels turn freely both ways at varying speeds and direction then your problem will be the Track. If not then definately a need to have him to bits for a sort out.

Always best to understand the real problem before hunting for a solution.
 
Thank you Dunnyrail.

I've sat my locomotive upside down in a basket, as if that makes any difference, and at the moment I'm embarrassed to relay the results. It might just be luck but apart from one stop it seems to be running well in both direction and I've gone through touching all 4 wheels and the skates.

I don't like to be too optimistic because I've been here before.

I'll let it run for a period whilst I give my track a good clean.

Sarah Winfield
 
I think I'm beginning to understand why clean track is so important especially with DCC.

Also I now appreciate why some of the 2nd hand track I have bought has solder at the end of each rail.

I guess it is all part of the learning curve.

I'll now re-lay my oval but first ensure every rail joiner is clean with good contact.

Sarah Winfield
 
Sarah Winfield said:
I think I'm beginning to understand why clean track is so important especially with DCC.

Also I now appreciate why some of the 2nd hand track I have bought has solder at the end of each rail.

I guess it is all part of the learning curve.

I'll now re-lay my oval but first ensure every rail joiner is clean with good contact.

Sarah Winfield
Click to expand...

To save lots of hard work...

Buy a really cheap bottle of Coke.. Stand the ends of your track in it overnight, and then rinse well. - You should see a marked improvement.
Then use a tiny (half a pea) sized amount of 'conductive grease' / 'copper grease' in each joint. - Make sure the joiners are a little tight to the track.

I think you will find it is the joints, more so than the actual rail-head, which is the problem..??

As for 'better' in reverse than forward: My guess would be an older engine, and things worn more in a forward direction, and it is a little tired. - Reverse is better.
 
Thank you PhilP.

I just can't believe all the odd and strange things that were happening were solely due to dirty track. Having had a look inside a couple of rail joiners I can well understand how electrical problems occur. It still however doesn't explain why the locomotive's performance went well initially but then gradually deteriorated.

Sarah Winfield
 
Probably when you initially put your track together there was enough movement in the joints to make a reasonable (electrical) joint? - The 'wiping action' of the two pieces as you pushed them together..

A couple of damp mornings, and there you have the problem.

Of course, we won't be sure until you get a few length of track connected up again.

Keep smiling! All part of the joyof running your own railway empire! :)
 
Sarah Winfield said:
Thank you Dunnyrail.

I've sat my locomotive upside down in a basket, as if that makes any difference, and at the moment I'm embarrassed to relay the results. It might just be luck but apart from one stop it seems to be running well in both direction and I've gone through touching all 4 wheels and the skates.

I don't like to be too optimistic because I've been here before.

I'll let it run for a period whilst I give my track a good clean.

Sarah Winfield
Click to expand...
Here is the test for your Railjoiners a simple one that can easily prove things for you. Together with a good scrob from a LGB 50040 Track Cleaner probathat any Track Powreredb G scaler can make and you should be all OK.bb
Sarah Winfield said:
I think I'm beginning to understand why clean track is so important especially with DCC.

Also I now appreciate why some of the 2nd hand track I have bought has solder at the end of each rail.

I guess it is all part of the learning curve.

I'll now re-lay my oval but first ensure every rail joiner is clean with good contact.

Sarah Winfield
Click to expand...
No worries Sarah it was always going to be a but of an experiment for you in a new branch of the hobby. I have made a short vid to help,out with testing of your Rail Joiners and also an LGB 50040 Track Cleaning Block if you do not have one will be one of the bsst investments you can make for less than £15.00. I have a couple and will use nothing else.


These tests as shown will work with both DCC and DC if you need to. Finally you can clean the joins of your track with an overnight soak of the ends in some Cola, will bring them nice and bright again then use some LGB Railjoint Compound on each of the joints to give you plenty of trouble free running.
 
Thanks for the demonstration video.

Now, is continuity either 100% or 0%? That is when I touch the probes of me AVO with it set on OHM's the needle swings all the way to the right. When I separate them the needle swings back to the left.

Are these the only two situations i.e. either 0 or 100 please?

I'm trying to establish when I have a fishplate between 2 rails it is either 0 i.e. no continuity or 100 i.e full continuity.

Thanks.

Sarah Winfield
 
If you touch the probes together, that is 'full continuity' as you call it.. That is what you want across your rail-joints...
BUT your meter uses a teeny-tiny current, so will not fully test a joint. - Will give you a good idea though..

*Make sure the power is OFF for continuity testing!
 
I do have to bring another important consideration to light.

When debugging track issues, just measuring the voltage on the tracks (whether speaker, meter, scope) it does not guarantee you that you are locating the issue.

This is because a poorly conducting joint has resistance (that impedes current flow), but under no load (like just measuring voltage), the resistance is not much of a factor.

This all comes down to Ohms law: V = IR or the voltage "lost" in a bad connection is equal to the current times the resistance.

The important thing is that if you are not drawing a lot of current "I" then the resistance almost does not matter, and thus the voltage lost (V = IR) is minimal.

But now put a load on the rails, and with more current "I" it is a greater multiplier, and the voltage lost is greater.

Example: suppose you have a bad rail joint with 5 ohms of resistance.

You measure the voltage past the bad spot, but using a volt meter, whicose you have a bad rail joint with 5 ohms of resistance.

You measure the voltage past the bad spot, but using a volt meter, which only draws 0.0000024 amp, the voltage lost is about zero, i.e. even with this 5 ohms in a bad joint, you volt meter shows you have full voltage.

But now, you run a train, and it draws one amp. Now with one amp flowing through that joint with 5 ohms, you "lose" 5 * 1 = 5 volts just through the rail joint, that is the loco loses 5 volts when it crosses that joint.​

So the lesson is it really helps to have a load on the rails at the same time you are trying to measure where problems are.

Greg
 
Agreed: a continuity tester on it's own isn't always the best test. I used to go round my line with a pair of pliers in hand and with a loco running. If it noticeably slows or comes to a stop then I use the pliers first to bridge the rail joints immediately behind it (or maybe immediately in front if the power feed is nearer to where the train is heading than where it's been); if that causes the loco to pick up again then you've identified the problem joint and you have the tool already in hand to give the joiner good squeeze and see if that cures the problem!
 
When I am cleaning the layout up for a session, one of my standard practices is to run a single pickup loco (like the Steinz) around the layout on very low speed (2 or 3 on my 28 step system). This has the benefit of applying a load and also i get to drive. Where it stops is where the problems are.
 
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Actually, aren't there 6 pickup points? the 4 wheels and the 2 skates? Pardon my ignorance if I am wrong. ;)

Back to your point, I agree, I run a limited pickup loco... like a Lionel Pacific, so that the short wheelbase depends on the switches having power to the point rails and the frogs... (that loco only picks up from the drivers, no where else... crazy...

Greg
 
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