Replacement Track NW UK

[viaEstrecha]

There's Stainless Steel, and Stainless Steel, as everything you get what you pay for.
I must admit I don't really agree that you won't need to clean track if you go battery power. You obviously won't need to keep it spotless but it will still need a good scrub regularly to keep the crud from collecting and causing mayhem

I'm hoping my handheld garden vac plus something to poke twigs and ballast from points will be enough - compared to hours on my creaky knees with a block, thats a mere trifle. Possibly even one from Mrs Miggins Apologies for drifting thread...

 

[Greg Elmassian]

So, yes there is stainless and stainless.... CLEARLY I was specifying SS that is used for G scale track.

No oxidation, I did not run for 1 year, wiped the dirt and dust with a wet rag with window cleaner on it, ran perfect.

NO OXIDATION that affected operation in any way. Aristo SS. Plated track not good for continuous unattended operation, easy to damage track. LGB never made stainless, just nickel-plated brass, and I think they had aluminum at one point.

It's of no help to come up with "I saw a sink with rust once", or "there goes the loch ness monster", I thought we tried to honor the OP's question and help?

 

[Paradise]

So, yes there is stainless and stainless.... CLEARLY I was specifying SS that is used for G scale track.

No oxidation, I did not run for 1 year, wiped the dirt and dust with a wet rag with window cleaner on it, ran perfect.

NO OXIDATION that affected operation in any way. Aristo SS. Plated track not good for continuous unattended operation, easy to damage track. LGB never made stainless, just nickel-plated brass, and I think they had aluminum at one point.

It's of no help to come up with "I saw a sink with rust once", or "there goes the loch ness monster", I thought we tried to honor the OP's question and help?

My comment was a reply in reference to the fact that stainless steel can and does rust. It had nothing to do with Aristocarft stainless steel track.
And from you Greg, who shoots off his big mouth and doesn't know the difference between a side rod and a con rod. PULL YOU HEAD IN!

 

[Martin01]

Semi-off topic but Is this Guys Restaurant near Garstang?

Yes It is.

 

[Martin01]

There is P&S Hobbies, York and Scarborough, who also do mail order.

I use P&S Hobbies to refurbish the trains.

 

[Gerard]

I think battery power is a great idea in this case. Since the train is constant running there is no need for any regulation of speed.
About the suggestion of stainless steel rails, my friend, who was a LGB dealer for 40 years, told me that stainless steel is not a good conducting material. It needs a lot of extra power points along the rails to be feeded with/along a thick copper wire.
Great idea to change sides of the track! Inside becomes outside and vice verse for the other track, so an "as new" railroad, except for the switches however.
I wonder why the track is so badly worn out?
May be some of the wagons do not straighten correctly after the bends?
Perhaps the train often pushed instead of pulled over the track?
If so you can improve the aligning of the wheel axis after a bend by applying a simple spring between both axis bogies (?) made from 0,5-1 mm spring steel wire pushed in small 0,5-1 mm drilled holes in the wagon bogies.
See picture attached.

 

[Rhinochugger]

So, yes there is stainless and stainless.... CLEARLY I was specifying SS that is used for G scale track.

No oxidation, I did not run for 1 year, wiped the dirt and dust with a wet rag with window cleaner on it, ran perfect.

NO OXIDATION that affected operation in any way. Aristo SS. Plated track not good for continuous unattended operation, easy to damage track. LGB never made stainless, just nickel-plated brass, and I think they had aluminum at one point.

It's of no help to come up with "I saw a sink with rust once", or "there goes the loch ness monster", I thought we tried to honor the OP's question and help?

My comment was a reply in reference to the fact that stainless steel can and does rust. It had nothing to do with Aristocarft stainless steel track.
And from you Greg, who shoots off his big mouth and doesn't know the difference between a side rod and a con rod. PULL YOU HEAD IN!

Trouble is you're both right.

There are various grades of stainless steel, and they behave differently in different situations.

Stainless steel balcony handrails near the sea-front will frequently rust despite the architects thinking they won't.

But, back to the railway in a restaurant - unless the customers get a bit over enthusiastic when throwing the salt over their left shoulders for luck, the stainless track is unlikely to be in an environment that will cause oxidation. Equally, the track will be in single lengths without welds, and that is frequently the problem with some uses of SS - don't ask me how I know (we had a metallurgist company on the case) because if I told you, I'd have to get someone to shoot you (well, better you than me, eh?)

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Gerard, I have to disagree with about everything you said:

Battery good for continuous running?
Continuous running is not a good candidate for battery at all, when does the loco get charged? Who climbs up to the track and connects the charger? Understanding battery operation is not normal for a person working in a restaurant. There is no "super battery" that runs forever.


Stainless not good due to lower conductivity
Stainless is somewhat less conductive than brass, but so what? And a LGB dealer is an expert?
These trains draw so little current that the voltage loss is minimal and clearly they are not running fast.

BUT:
Stainless steel is MORE conductive than brass oxide though!!
And if you researched a bit, the air in a restaurant has pollutants from the byproducts of making food and combustion byproducts from the stoves and ovens.
On our US forums, many people have written about small railroads in restaurants and given historical info on actual use and results


For a continuous running layout, it has been shown over and over that you either wear out the track (most have R1 curves) or wear out the wheels.

It's easier to replace wheels than all the track up in the air.

Also no one runs a continuous running layout on battery, because there are no "infinite output" batteries.

Track power is clearly less maintenance and complexity than battery control, chargers, etc.

Greg

 

[Martin01]

Gerard, I have to disagree with about everything you said:

Battery good for continuous running?
Continuous running is not a good candidate for battery at all, when does the loco get charged? Who climbs up to the track and connects the charger? Understanding battery operation is not normal for a person working in a restaurant. There is no "super battery" that runs forever.


Stainless not good due to lower conductivity
Stainless is somewhat less conductive than brass, but so what? And a LGB dealer is an expert?
These trains draw so little current that the voltage loss is minimal and clearly they are not running fast.

BUT:
Stainless steel is MORE conductive than brass oxide though!!
And if you researched a bit, the air in a restaurant has pollutants from the byproducts of making food and combustion byproducts from the stoves and ovens.
On our US forums, many people have written about small railroads in restaurants and given historical info on actual use and results


For a continuous running layout, it has been shown over and over that you either wear out the track (most have R1 curves) or wear out the wheels.

It's easier to replace wheels than all the track up in the air.

Also no one runs a continuous running layout on battery, because there are no "infinite output" batteries.

Track power is clearly less maintenance and complexity than battery control, chargers, etc.

Greg

Thank you for this answer.

1) Battery nope.
2) Availability is a key issue, Its easier to purchase companies you already deal with.. If that makes sense. I will ask my dealer about stainless.
3) Do you have a link to the US restaurant posts?
4) I clean the frack around every 3 months. Using a electrical contact cleaner, cloth. and shop vac. As you can imagine at that height its lots of fun .

I'm finding it very hard to estimate the specific radius track pieces as the layout is fixed to a metal frame and can't be changed.

This is back ground information.
The shape is basically a compressed bone shape.
Both radii are close to 2m
The full track length is 28-29m

The estimate for curved track is:
32 x radius 3.
6 x radius 2.
Long straight 4.4m.
Short Straight 2.5m
Three pair of track connectors.
Some form of sound proofing.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

everything you do should be with an eye to:

• reduce maintenance
• increase reliability
• minimize electrical connections
• reduce physical joints in rails - both running and electrical improve
• place "wear" where it is easiest to repair (wheels of locos, not worn rails up in the air)

You will want to use "flex track", you bend to match the curve, and fewer rail joiners from the greater length, typically about 5' lengths.

splitjaw in the usa ( www.railclamp.com ) just announced code 332 stainless flextrack, it's not on the site yet, I got the email on the 7th. This is the famous H&R track that has been imported for years, but better pricing.

You can also find Aristo-Craft flex track used.

Sound proofing might be the black, high density neoprene, like in scuba suits, 1/4" should be enough.

 

[dunnyrail]

Thank you for this answer.

1) Battery nope.
2) Availability is a key issue, Its easier to purchase companies you already deal with.. If that makes sense. I will ask my dealer about stainless.
3) Do you have a link to the US restaurant posts?
4) I clean the frack around every 3 months. Using a electrical contact cleaner, cloth. and shop vac. As you can imagine at that height its lots of fun .

I'm finding it very hard to estimate the specific radius track pieces as the layout is fixed to a metal frame and can't be changed.

This is back ground information.
The shape is basically a compressed bone shape.
Both radii are close to 2m
The full track length is 28-29m

The estimate for curved track is:
32 x radius 3.
6 x radius 2.
Long straight 4.4m.
Short Straight 2.5m
Three pair of track connectors.
Some form of sound proofing.

Cork is pretty good for sound proofing, likely as good as you will get short of some other kind of fireproof stuff. Also have a look at Wicks flooring base, a greenish product in packs that may likely suit with just 1 pack.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Cork is ok, but have tried both, and cork is harder and more expensive. it seems to not silence since it does not have the progressive "durometer" that neoprene has.

Also does not come in black unless you paint it.

Another option is "expanded pva" also cheap and sold in craft stores here in the USA. Similar to the neoprene, I think a bit less costly.

Greg

 

[playmofire]

Understanding battery operation is not normal for a person working in a restaurant.


Greg

A rather sweeping statement

 

[Gerard]

Greg, after some thoughts i do agree with you on my battery suggestion.
I'm still puzzled however what made that track so worned out it has to be replaced ?
I would think there is a significant difference in the lifetime of a switch compared to that of track?

Gerard

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Martin01:
go to mylargescale.com and largescalecentral.com and search for restaurants, you will find the posts. I don't make lists of links, I remember the discussions, also our club supports some display layouts.

playmofire:
as compared to a DC train with a speed knob, and the locos need no maintenance, operation is turning on a switch, and the train runs.
How many restaurant personell know how to re-rail a train up in the air, charge a battery and know when it is done, and debug an RF remote control system? I believe my "sweeping statement" is fully justified. If you can show me that restaurant personell have above average training in battery operated trains, I would eat my hat, and yours and all the hats in Disneyland. Come one.

Gerard:
the top wears also, but normally the inside rail head on curves can wear down to the web of the rail.

Brass is soft, the wheels wear too. The biggest issue is the lack of differential ability on axles, of course.

Air pollutants also appear to add wear, although I wonder if you would not get some lubrication qualities from grease from fried foods.

Greg

 

[dunnyrail]

Greg, after some thoughts i do agree with you on my battery suggestion.
I'm still puzzled however what made that track so worned out it has to be replaced ?
I would think there is a significant difference in the lifetime of a switch compared to that of track?

Gerard

Sorry to say I agree with Martin, battery is a no no as it would be something extra for the Restraunt to think about rather than just turning on the power. Remember this is a line that runs while the Restraunt is open. Many moons ago I picked up a Stainz that he’d been used in a permanent Restraunt type of scenario. The wheels were well worn down as was the chassis with egg shaped holes. Yes it still ran, but that wear would also equate to the track as well. We do run our lines quite a bit as does casey jones snr , but still at nothing like the continuous running likely 7 days a week when the Restraunt is open. Being on a lot of curved track with services circumnavigating one way only is going to cause track wastage over time.

 

[JimmyB]

playmofire:
as compared to a DC train with a speed knob, and the locos need no maintenance, operation is turning on a switch, and the train runs.
How many restaurant personell know how to re-rail a train up in the air, charge a battery and know when it is done, and debug an RF remote control system? I believe my "sweeping statement" is fully justified. If you can show me that restaurant personell have above average training in battery operated trains, I would eat my hat, and yours and all the hats in Disneyland. Come one.

I still think this is a sweeping generalization, and degrading to restaurant staff, you should be more careful in your how you insult people's intelligence. You going to tell us next that pop singers and producers know nothing of model railways, who knows.

 

[Paul M]

I still think this is a sweeping generalization, and degrading to restaurant staff, you should be more careful in your how you insult people's intelligence. You going to tell us next that pop singers and producers know nothing of model railways, who knows.

True, there must be some model railway interest in at least some of the restaurant's staff, otherwise they wouldn't have a model railway! But I do agree cleaning must be a nightmare.

 

[maxi-model]

True, there must be some model railway interest in at least some of the restaurant's staff, otherwise they wouldn't have a model railway! But I do agree cleaning must be a nightmare.

Well Paul........Although it has been quite a few years, I did have part time evening jobs, waiting, at 3 different restaurants over a period of 7 years. We didn't have any trains running but I was pretty handy a stacking 6 (oval) plates of food along one arm, walking up a flight of stairs to the mazzanine and serving them up. I do remember going to "Chicago Meatpackers", at the top of Charing Cross Rd, in 1984 to see the Superbowl televised live (Pat's lost !) A feature of that restaurant was an overhead suspended railway, similar to or an actual LGB make.

I would have thought that the environment in an actual resturant dining area should not pose any real issues. Most eateries, greasy spoons excepted perhaps, generally have very efficiant HVAC systems, particularly in kitchens, never mind the dining bit. With some exceptions kitchens are isolated from the rest of an establishment. Apart from fire risks I doubt many diners would wish to be assaulted by the smells and grease/steam laden fug coming from there.

Brass/Stainless Steel ? It's price v performance here - will the SS outlast the brass enough to justify the cost difference, if any ? Both metals are excellent mediums for transmitting those vital electrons, indoors or outdoors, with the correct preparation - track clamps and a bit of graphite paste on nice shiney rail ends. Would not the regular long run times not keep the railhead well polished and clean ? Sound deadening ? Why would you ? Just crank up the sound system and bung on Milly Jackson. Well that's what we used to do when a table got too rowdy. Max

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I cannot believe that people think i am insulting people who work in restaurants! Really?

The point is that it takes more knowledge of trains than is common EVEN AMONG MODEL TRAINS PEOPLE.

Clearly this is more to ask of people, and RUNNING MODEL TRAINS IS NOT IN THE JOB DESCRIPTION OF ANY RESTAURANT STAFF I HAVE EVER SEEN

Come on guys, are you smoking "hostile weed"?